How many women (or men) identify as cisgender?

[hallouminatus]

On another forum, I said "Most women don't identify as cisgender, and many feel that describing them as such is disrespectful". Someone has asked me for evidence of this. I think it's probably true, but I haven't seen any statistics or even estimates of numbers. I'm interested in any evidence or arguments which would either support or refute my statement.

Exactly that @ErrolTheDragon. She said when she went back to wearing a skirt suit she realised how uncomfortable she was, how often she was focused on checking that her bra was not visible through her open necked blouse or that her legs were pinched together so no one could look up her skirt from across the room.

Until very recently some major firms insisted on women wearing heels to the office. That I think was challenged legally but only a couple of years ago.

I consider cis to be a slur.

It refers to sexist stereotypes of how a woman should behave and what she should look like. It requires an acknowledgement of gender theory which most people do not even think about.

I am the sex i was born. That's it. It's as simple as that.

What's up with the term 'female' these days? A friend posted on FB that it's a red flag for any man to use it instead of woman. I didn't like to ask ....

@SpiritOfEcstasy

What's up with the term 'female' these days? A friend posted on FB that it's a red flag for any man to use it instead of woman. I didn't like to ask ....

I'm not sure what your friend meant, but women are using it to make it clear they're talking about women ... and now some males are trying to appropriate it too. Which is gobsmacking chutzpah, to put it mildly.

@SpiritOfEcstasy

What's up with the term 'female' these days? A friend posted on FB that it's a red flag for any man to use it instead of woman. I didn't like to ask ....

Go on, ask

By “red flag” it might mean your friend thinks that the guy is a nasty transphobe who thinks only females can be women.

I don't identify as any gender, I'm female though

I think it's also that MRAs and incels often refer to women as "females". But it's not our fault that some people understand "woman" to include some males.

@SpiritOfEcstasy

What's up with the term 'female' these days? A friend posted on FB that it's a red flag for any man to use it instead of woman. I didn't like to ask ....

There's a certain type of man who refers to females instead of women and it has a particularly nasty woman hating tone to it. It's hard to think of an example but I have come across it a fair bit. I can understand seeing it as a red flag when a man uses it in certain circumstances.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think it's also that MRAs and incels often refer to women as "females". But it's not our fault that some people understand "woman" to include some males.

I think they're channelling the Ferengi (for the woefully ignorant, small mercenary humanoids who kept their 'females' at home, no economic or other power, naked and expected to perform sex acts (stroking their massive ears) on demand).

I'm not sure it's deliberate.

You can't identify as the opposite gender if there are (many) more than two "genders".

I've got that right surely?

No and it really pisses me off. Made up bollocks.

I don’t identify as cis.

However if people use the word cis at me, I won’t police their language but I’d say I find the word disrespectful and say “I don’t identify as cis”

@SheGonBringThatAttitudeHome2

You can't identify as the opposite gender if there are (many) more than two "genders".

I've got that right surely?

At least 100 if you believe the BBC.

If 1% of the population imagine that they have a “gender identity” there is no obligation on the 99% to humour them to extent of agreeing that
a) they believe such a thing exists and
b) that they have one as well.

I have a slight problem with the first part of that since we know that trans people can experience acute and crippling suffering around gender issues, so on purely compassionate grounds I'm willing to listen to how they express and frame those issues, and medical and professionals are surely duty bound to do the same.

Totally agree with the second part though, and with other comments above along these lines. Basically psychologists, academics and the media seem to have gone from recognising that "a small minority of people identify as the opposite gender to their sex..." to assuming "...unlike most people, who identify as the same gender as their sex".

Noone ever seems to have stopped to think about whether that second part is true, or to have applied any kind of scientific method to it. A cisgender identity is just what you're told you have, unless you take deliberate steps to specify otherwise - which is ironic considering that the whole business developed out of a desire not to presume things about people's sense of self and gender but to acknowledge their own definition and agency.

Now it's like any attempt to even address that second part of the ideology is taken as an attack on trans people. Like in order to not be "transphobic" it's not enough just to treat trans people right, listen and try to understand their views and support accepting them for what they are. You also have to sign up to a whole load of pseudoscientific codswallop about everyone else and refrain from questioning it, even where trans people aren't involved. Madness.

I've quite often asked people, in real life and online, whether they have a gender identity and if so can they describe for me what it is. Mostly people just seem to go quiet and hope someone else will answer the question. I think most of them are as mystified as I am by it but understand it's the sort of issue where you can easily get caught out saying the "wrong" thing. Only occasionally have I got any kind of considered, cogent reply.

To be fair, that has happened in the affirmative in a few cases so it seems to be something that a few people find useful or accurate to describe how they think/feel about themselves. I'm just not convinced it applies to everybody, or even most people

Female as an adjective is accurate and perfectly acceptable when describing a woman.
Female as a noun, as in "the room was full of females" instead of "women" is dehumanising as it could refer to any species.

I am biologically of the female sex... That is all.

Gender = personality and interests. Nothing more.

I do not identify as any gender as it's all a made up social construct. To believe you are of "the female gender" you must accept that things such as makeup, skirts, housework, pink, dolls and so on are what makes you a woman. I don't buy into this at all. The roles that society allocates to each sex are not what defines them. Only your biology can determine your sex. Everything else is just your personality.

If you are of the male sex and like to wear dresses, that's just your personality and interests. That doesn't change your biology, and shouldn't allow you to identify into the opposite sex.

@MoleSmokes

Thank you for posting that explanation about the nonsense of the prefix/word cis in relation to gender ideology. 👍

I find it offensive in several ways, main one is because it assumes that I am willing to buy into the idea that gender is something you ‘identify’ as. I am a woman: it’s a biological fact. I don’t ‘identify’ as anything.

It’s like putting preferred pronouns on your profile: it’s a statement that you’re willing to buy into trans ideology which I find anti-science, anti-fact, creepily obsessed with primary schools and wildly sexist.

"I think it’s very notable that there is no longer a real female equivalent to cross dressing."

Yes indeed, @merrymouse. One of the reasons that I've decided that I find drag pretty offensive is that there is no female equivalent – and if a rule is only applied to one sex, you can usually be pretty sure it's sexism.

I like the story of a woman wearing men's suits - it's generally agreed that men's clothes and shoes and much better made than women's. I'm an amateur musician, and I often wear a dinner suit or tailcoat for concerts - so much more practical, so great having a pocket to put your tuning fork in, so good not having to worry about straps and silliness. I find it bizarre, watching mixed choirs, how much flesh the women are expected to display.

(I'm new to Mumsnet so not sure whether it's okay to go off on tangents...?)

I am not any gender.

I am female, a woman, and use a name that gives strong clue that that is the case, and present as a woman. Some of my clothing is feminine gendered, I suppose, as is my jewellery. I also have posessions, clothing, hobbies etc that could be said to be 'masculine gendered' or 'gender neutral'.

But as a person I am not a' gender'.

I don't identify as a gender.

Although I suspect that those that need to find a label for that will invent one if they need too.

I'm cisgender and happy to identify as such.

@MsGrumpytrousers

"I think it’s very notable that there is no longer a real female equivalent to cross dressing."

Yes indeed, @merrymouse. One of the reasons that I've decided that I find drag pretty offensive is that there is no female equivalent – and if a rule is only applied to one sex, you can usually be pretty sure it's sexism.

I like the story of a woman wearing men's suits - it's generally agreed that men's clothes and shoes and much better made than women's. I'm an amateur musician, and I often wear a dinner suit or tailcoat for concerts - so much more practical, so great having a pocket to put your tuning fork in, so good not having to worry about straps and silliness. I find it bizarre, watching mixed choirs, how much flesh the women are expected to display.

(I'm new to Mumsnet so not sure whether it's okay to go off on tangents...?)

Drag Kings don't have as big a platform yet but they are certainly out there. I have a friend who performs as one professionally, often at drag or burlesque club nights (well pre pandemic anyway).

@myturf

I'm cisgender and happy to identify as such.

But this is your choice, why should other people have a right to label someone in a way that they don't want to be labeled, especially from a group that wants to be labelled in a particular way?

I'm cisgender and happy to identify as such.

So you identify with feminine cultural and social expectations. I honestly don’t understand the difference between identifying as Cis and being a ‘Surrendered Wife’.