Staniland Question is so good. Can we think of others?

[aliasundercover]

The Staniland question:
Do you believe that male-sexed people have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage girls?
is so clever. The fact that so many people refuse to engage with it - let alone answer it - means it's a quick, powerful, way of showing how ridiculous the TWAW position is.

Can we think of any others that would be as effective? Maybe we could come up with 5 or so really sharp questions that TRAs could refuse to answer. My first thoughts are something along the lines of:
Why is it racist to identify as another race but stunning and brave to identify as another sex?
I'm sure somebody can word that better.

So any suggestions? The questions need to be short and clear.

@aliasundercover

Well done jj, after hours wasting everyone's time, and dozens of feeble attempts, you've actually managed to ask an interesting question.

I'll have to think about that one - my instinct says 'yes', as she's female. I'd like to read what others think.

Now, jj, what's your answer to the original Staniland question?

No, I think communal changing rooms should be abolished.

That is not how most trans people have behaved for decades. If it were then there would have been a debate for decades.

It really is. I've known a lot of trans people, going back 30 years, and I don't know a single one who used toilets and changing rooms inline with their sex at birth. I do know a few who self-exclude from things like swimming baths and gyms because of communal changing rooms, but I don't know any trans women who would use the men's.

Can trans women be surrogates? If not why not?

Communal changing rooms exist.

They have pros and cons.

They will exist for a long time yet.

Given that is the reality how do you answer the question?

@jj1968

We have had sex segregated facilities and services for years without needing knicker inspectors at the doors. We can continue exactly as we are.

Cool, trans people will keep using toilets inline with their gender identity as they have done for decades then.

Funny how none of us have seen these thousands of transwomen who have been using the women's toilets for decades. Or did they all 'pass' until about five years ago and then suddenly they didn't any more and that's why we see them so regularly now?

I went about forty years without seeing a man who wishes to be seen to be a woman in the ladies toilets, yet now they're suddenly everywhere.

And on that note, my daughter has had life long anxiety problems, including a fear of public toilets. From she stopped wearing nappies until she was about 11, I had to accompany her into the toilets when we went out. She was unable to go out for the day alone with her father because he couldn't go into the ladies with her and she didn't want to go into the mens. At about the age of 11, after a lot of work, her father took her to an event. Part way through the day, she needed the toilet and she braved, for the first time, knowing she would have to go in alone. She walked in and came out fairly quickly and my husband took her back to their seats. She arrived home that evening and whispered to me that she went into the ladies toilets and there was a man there, and she was scared so she came out again. 11 years old and she held on all day because some selfish arsehole thought his entitlement to use somewhere that she should have felt comfortable was more important than hers. She didn't tell her dad because she was too flustered by it.

She's a big fully grown teenager and she still won't bloody go to a public toilet alone, partly because that man freaked her out so much. The arrogance of these people. How bloody dare they.

So if some women (actual women, not transwomen) wanted to get changed together you'd make that illegal? Wow! Everything must change to allow for trans ideology.

How about for the teens;

If a group of men and a group of TW were sent off to populate a new world, could they achieve this aim?

@jj1968

That is not how most trans people have behaved for decades. If it were then there would have been a debate for decades.

It really is. I've known a lot of trans people, going back 30 years, and I don't know a single one who used toilets and changing rooms inline with their sex at birth. I do know a few who self-exclude from things like swimming baths and gyms because of communal changing rooms, but I don't know any trans women who would use the men's.

That says a lot more than you might think about you and the people you hang around with. The selfishness of this ideology is staggering.

A good question is:

what is a prerequisite to be a trans woman?

Or acknowledging the statement TWAW

Trans woman are women but did you know only males can be trans women?

(I've had people believe/assume/understand that a trans woman is a woman transitioning to be man)

@Darcinian

Communal changing rooms exist.

They have pros and cons.

They will exist for a long time yet.

Given that is the reality how do you answer the question?

I said no, and I expect most trans people agree which is why barely anyone has ever actually seen a naked trans person in a communal changing room. But it's not acceptable to me that trans people, along with people from certain religious groups, or those who simply have concerns about communal nudity are excluded from some public facilities. It needs to end, now.

That says a lot more than you might think about you and the people you hang around with. The selfishness of this ideology is staggering.

No-one has been selfish, it's just how society developed and no-one cared until a couple of years ago. Trans people were expected to use facilities inline with their gender if they wanted medical treatment, it was part of the 'real life test'. Trans people have had the legal right to do so in many cases arguably since the 70s, certainly since 1999 and then these rights were strengthened in 2010. Just because you didn't notice doesn't mean it wasn't happening, there aren't that many trans women and you can't always tell.

@jj1968

That is not how most trans people have behaved for decades. If it were then there would have been a debate for decades.

It really is. I've known a lot of trans people, going back 30 years, and I don't know a single one who used toilets and changing rooms inline with their sex at birth. I do know a few who self-exclude from things like swimming baths and gyms because of communal changing rooms, but I don't know any trans women who would use the men's.

Yes, I expect TW will continue to tend to use the disabled changing or other mixed sex option instead of the men's.

So long as women continue to have the right to say no to TW using the women's as an alternative then everyone's fine.

Yes it needs to end. Third spaces should be available for those people who don't wish to use facilities designated for their own sex. However, for the privacy of both sexes male and female separate facilities should be just that.

Yes, I expect TW will continue to tend to use the disabled changing or other mixed sex option instead of the men's.

Disabled changing spaces are for disabled people. Mixed sex options rarely exist. And in the vast majority of cases you do not have the right to say no, that's democracy I'm afraid, you don't get to ignore laws you don't like.

Back to the original question.

Should everything be made mixed sex? If not, why not?

@jj1968

Yes, I expect TW will continue to tend to use the disabled changing or other mixed sex option instead of the men's.

Disabled changing spaces are for disabled people. Mixed sex options rarely exist. And in the vast majority of cases you do not have the right to say no, that's democracy I'm afraid, you don't get to ignore laws you don't like.

You seem to be misinformed about the law.

The right to single sex spaces is enshrined in law.

It is specifically stated in law that this can override gender reassignment.

@jj1968

Yes, I expect TW will continue to tend to use the disabled changing or other mixed sex option instead of the men's.

Disabled changing spaces are for disabled people. Mixed sex options rarely exist. And in the vast majority of cases you do not have the right to say no, that's democracy I'm afraid, you don't get to ignore laws you don't like.

Well that's ironic...

No legal right to say no to men.

Wrong but interesting to see it presented as a desirable outcome.

It is specifically stated in law that this can override gender reassignment.

Only if it is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim. Communal changing rooms might meet that test, although it would probably require a third space to be found. Changing rooms with cubicles and toilets would not. Iit's not up to the law anyway, it's up to whoever owns the premises. If a shop or service is happy to let trans people use toilets/changing rooms inline with their gender there is nothing to legally prevent that. And pretty much all of them do.

Another possible question:

Should the needs of male bodied people ,who identify as women , to be treated as if they were women, override the needs of women and girls to be safe in places where they are vulnerable?

It's sadly not a positive right for women to have female only spaces in many locations (although workplace toilets are supposed to be either single sex or closed cubicle).

But it is potentially creating a hostile environment of sexual harassment if women and girls have to share changing rooms etc with fetishistic cross dressers (under the trans umbrella as we all know). So in some circumstances providers of these facilities are risking a legal challenge by allowing these males in.

You have all asked most of them.

I would just like to know why,

When the choice was there to fight with our help for third spaces and extra provisions, why It was decided to completely demolish womens rights.

And why is anger always directed at women for saying no. And not those who got greedy, flew to close to the sun and ruined it for eveeyone.

Pips Bunce identifies as a woman three days of the week, and as a man the rest of the time. Pips has won prizes for achievement as a senior woman in business.

If TWAW, is Pips literally a woman on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays?

If misgendering is a crime, what pronouns should we use for Pips on a Tuesday and a Thursday? Why would the same pronouns be acceptable on some days but literal violence on others?

In what essential way is Pips different on woman days from Pips on man days?

@CranberriesChoccyAgain

If aggressive men can enter a women's toilet at any time if they really wanted to assault a woman, why do transwomen think it's safer in there than the men's toilets?

This is an excellent point.

And one that is just constantly dodged. As at that stage, transwomen do not want int the womens because they are scared of men, its because 'thats where the women go' or something a bit more like 'because thats where women go, women like me. You must accept me as a woman the exact same way that you accept that black women are women otherwise you are discriminating against women' (or other racist analogy here)

"To be legally covered under the protected characteristic "gender reassignment" one must be, at the bare minimum, proposing to undergo a process to change one's "physiological or other attributes of sex".

What are the physiological attributes of sex, why are they important, and how can they be changed in a meaningful way?