Staniland Question is so good. Can we think of others?

[aliasundercover]

The Staniland question:
Do you believe that male-sexed people have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage girls?
is so clever. The fact that so many people refuse to engage with it - let alone answer it - means it's a quick, powerful, way of showing how ridiculous the TWAW position is.

Can we think of any others that would be as effective? Maybe we could come up with 5 or so really sharp questions that TRAs could refuse to answer. My first thoughts are something along the lines of:
Why is it racist to identify as another race but stunning and brave to identify as another sex?
I'm sure somebody can word that better.

So any suggestions? The questions need to be short and clear.

trans people should not be forced to use facilities which are not designed for them and they may be at risk.

Designed? Like, facilities with sanitary bins and tampon dispensers, or dedicated breastfeeding rooms? Agree.

Which facilities are trans people at risk in, why, and from whom?
I think that statement bears investigation.

I know you're keen to substantiate your statements with evidence.
Perhaps this is also true, like your earlier claim:
"Transpeople are hundreds of times more likely to be struck by lightening then they are ever to be assaulted using facilities for their own sex"

It would be good to have the facts, no?

Is it right that a female holidaymaker should have to disclose her experience of sexual abuse to a hostel manager in order to ensure that she doesn't have to share with a person of the opposite sex who says they identify as a woman?

@wellthatsunusual I'm absolutely outraged on behalf of your daughter. It also makes me sad that she and your husband lost out on some lovely father/daughter activities because of the selfishness of some individuals. I see TRAs fight for inclusion in female spaces motivated by arrogance and spite. One of the trans people I know would not want their dysphoria to be the reason a young girl was frightened.

She's a big fully grown teenager and she still won't bloody go to a public toilet alone, partly because that man freaked her out so much. The arrogance of these people. How bloody dare they.

Designed? Like, facilities with sanitary bins and tampon dispensers, or dedicated breastfeeding rooms? Agree.

Well men's toilets have urinals for a start which are not suitable for many trans women, so they would be disadvantaged by having reduced toilet provision for a start.

It would be good to have the facts, no?

I think it's self evident that many trans women would be just at risk as any other woman using men's spaces, and would equally feel as uncomfortable as any other woman forced to use a men's space. There are trans women alive who've been using women's spaces for decades, do you really expect them all to stop and start using the men's?

There are some great questions here. I think we will have lots of things we can ask people to illustrate the point.

Transwomen are not 'any other women'. If male people are made to feel unsafe or uncomfortable in men's spaces then that is not a problem that women should be expected to fix.

Should all vulnerable men be allowed to use female changing rooms and sleeping accommodation because they might not be safe in the men's changing room/ dormitory?

Only men can become trans women, therefore how are trans women, women? At which point in the process do they magically change sex?

My old lecturer posed the following to us students. He said, that I know you are all leftie and take the moral high ground on politics and don't want to hear opinions and offensive things but when you get to my age you may see the world differently. When you are young your natural instinct is for censorship but it has drawbacks and we should always be mindful of them. He asked us to consider the following:

Do you believe in censorship? If you believe in censorship how do you control the power of the censors and hold it to account if you have no power to criticise? Just how powerful is the power of censorship and what are its limits? Who decides what to censor and what not to censor? What happens if the power of censorship passes from 'your' side of the political divide to the 'other side' of the political spectrum?

No its not a Staniland Question, but its definitely a thought for our time and one everyone should consider hard.

He died some years ago but he was truly brilliant and with the benefit of hindsight I really wished I'd listened harder and appreciated him more now. I wish I could go back and ask a few questions.

334bu excellent topic on hostels. And I suspended once COVID is over this will come up.

"Should women traveling to the UK/US/Canada (or insert your own country) have an expectation of sex-segregated hostels/dorms/rooms?"

Female-only hostels and dorms allowed my girlfriends, sisters and me to travel all over the world as independent young women. After a day of sexual harassment and catcalling, it was always such a relief to feel safe and left alone when we got back to our rooms. We also had the opportunity to meet women from around the world and despite our many cultural differences, sharing female-only space was a relief and comfort no matter what country we came from.

I realized that was a few decades ago...are there no longer female-only hostel rooms?!? I am also thinking of all the non-western women who often had stricter sex boundaries than we did. It's rather appalling that this could change. It will tamp down women's freedom to travel and attend foreign education programs.

• suspect. Not "suspended"

Well men's toilets have urinals for a start which are not suitable for many trans women, so they would be disadvantaged by having reduced toilet provision for a start.

What???? Do men's toilets not have cubicles as well? Good grief. Next you'll be telling that it's because men don't poo!

She's a big fully grown teenager and she still won't bloody go to a public toilet alone, partly because that man freaked her out so much. The arrogance of these people. How bloody dare they.

I'm sorry this happened, but I imagine she would have been equally distressed had she run into a masculine appearing trans man and would have been thoroughly confused if you tried to tell her that some women look just like men and they are allowed to use women's toilets and some men look like women but they aren't and she should be able to tell because evolution has designed her brain so she can automatically know the sex someone was born as no matter how they look based on gait and pheromones - which I believe is some people's position.

I used to know a woman who called herself a cis woman (and was) who was never read as female by anyone. Even her voice sounded male. She did quite often use male spaces because of the amount of shit she got, but it's quite possible a child could run into her and assume she was a man so it's not just trans men.

I remember being terrified using a toilet alone when I was quite young by a man with quite a severe facial disfigurement and some kind of mental health condition that made him act a bit inappropriately but not really in a threatening or even creepy way. I was still scared to go in toilets on my own for a while after. These things happen to kids I certainly don't think that means he should have been prevented from being in there.

The usual person has successfully derailed this thread, as they have done so many times before.

Can we not just ignore them and get back to the original topic? I've loved so many of the suggested questions.

She was scared because of a MALE being in a place they are not supposed to be. She would not have had the same reaction to a physically deformed woman because a woman is entitled to be in a toilet no matter what she looks like.

I think a question to women should be, "at what age did you (and/or your daughter) start understanding that males could be a risk?"

I do think it's been a useful illustration of how women are expected to fix problems that are caused by men.

"at what age did you (and/or your daughter) start understanding that males could be a risk?"

yes, that is a good one. I was 7. Nasty flasher outside the girls loos in the park.

Never went to those loos again.

Should health boards imply that female patients are guilty of transphobia if they ask for a female sexed mammographer?

Honestly, while I do have sympathy for people with gender dysphoria, if a male-bodied person willingly chooses to remove their penis, I do rather feel it is up to them to accept the consequences of that action. If that means reduced options in terms of where they can urinate, well, so be it. Voluntarily choosing to remove one's penis is not a free pass into women's spaces, especially as women already face much longer queues for the ladies' than men do for the gents.

Thanks OP. yes...I posted a second ago about hostels. I hadn't thought of this until brought up so I'm so grateful for @334bu for bringing it up. I see independent travel for women as such a rich opportunity that for much of history has been far more difficult for us than men. Allowing some sex-based spaces had opened up opportunities for millions of women and girls, and this should not be ignored.

Should men and women be entitled to segregated toilets, showers and changing rooms for privacy and dignity?

So lets leave toilets to jj, who apparantely thinks transwomen have penises that can't use urinals, and focus on other questions to be asked.

Why are transwomen fighting for the right to use female facilities, that are setup for usage by female human beings, instead of spending their energy on ensuring male facilities are more welcoming to them?

Why are transwomen celebrated for being the first women to instead of being the first transwomen to?

Why are transwomen claiming to speak for women when they will not even discuss female biology? How can a transwoman ever fight for female issues?

Should a person with a communication difficulty, like autism, be convicted for asking for clarification of someone's sex?

Who was that lad with autism who was convicted of a hate crime after asking the trans man officer if he was a woman?

That person's disability was also a protected characteristic - another case where rights and provisions collide.

@RoyalCorgi

The academic lawyer Alessandra Asteriti had a good question on Twitter. (She has now been banned, of course, even though she was always polite and reasonable.)

This is it:

If you see an eight-year old girl going into a public toilet, and shortly afterwards you see a man go into the same toilet, do you:

a) go in after them to make sure the girl is safe
b) assume that the man identifies as female and do nothing?

That is a good question.

Wow. No wonder the woman who asked this question was banned