Staniland Question is so good. Can we think of others?

[aliasundercover]

The Staniland question:
Do you believe that male-sexed people have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage girls?
is so clever. The fact that so many people refuse to engage with it - let alone answer it - means it's a quick, powerful, way of showing how ridiculous the TWAW position is.

Can we think of any others that would be as effective? Maybe we could come up with 5 or so really sharp questions that TRAs could refuse to answer. My first thoughts are something along the lines of:
Why is it racist to identify as another race but stunning and brave to identify as another sex?
I'm sure somebody can word that better.

So any suggestions? The questions need to be short and clear.

Should a teenage trans girl, with a vagina, be forced to undress and shower in a communal changing room with naked men?

Teenage means under 20? So male child who has had their penis removed and a hole created by surgery, who is under 20 years old.

As surgery is not permitted under 18, that leaves this imaginery person to have had this surgery in two years, including all the pre op treatments, medication, etc, raised the money, had the surgery, recovered and is using a communal changing room for .. sports? Swimming?

Sorry, but seeing as this surgery is only carried out a handful of times in the UK on adults every year (and who the hell operates on a teen for this) I call bullshit scenario.

Who has ever said it's not acceptable. The problem when it doesn't exist. There is no push from trans people to get into communal spaces, that's why you never see trans people in communal changing spaces.

I've certainly seen women on message boards in Canada who seem to think it is a problem. It's also a problem with trans-identifying children in schools, as numerous threads on here attest to.

I actually agree with you, jj in that I think many mtf transitioners would not feel comfortable in a female changing room and would avoid such a situation.

However, I am also quite, quite sure that a certain type of transitioner would very much like to be in that space. I am also quite sure that there are certain men (not trans) who would exploit the situation to their own advantage.

This is why we need laws and clarity over who can use these spaces. This is why I get very concerned when I see gyms stating that they segregate by 'gender identity', not sex.

You might not be pushing for it, but there are people who are.

Actually, it is not the nice and kind transwomen I have a problem with, it is the ones demanding they can have access based on nothing more than their say-so. Every single time someone argues transwomen must have access or else,I just think those are the very people I want to avoid.

And as I don't know if a transwoman is the be-kind type or the or-else type, blanket ban on all males in the female facility. It is also not as if they need the female facilities, they have no need of sanitary bins, they can use the stalls in the mens just as easily.

A specific question for when someone's using the suicide card to demand we sit back and shut up or we'll have forced trans people to kill themselves...

"If someone is threatening suicide are they in a suitable state of mind to give true consent to irreversibly life changing drugs or surgery?"

@MuggleStudiesResearchProject

A specific question for when someone's using the suicide card to demand we sit back and shut up or we'll have forced trans people to kill themselves...

"If someone is threatening suicide are they in a suitable state of mind to give true consent to irreversibly life changing drugs or surgery?"

Very good one.

Should a teenage trans girl, with a vagina, be forced to undress and shower in a communal changing room with naked men?

I reject your language choice to describe that scenario as I think it is inaccurate, but when I reframe the hypothetical question in the framework of reality the answer is crystal clear.

Here's how I'd phrase the same scenario, using language that reflects the reality of sex and legal sex-based rights, and sex-based pronouns for the hypothetical young person in this scenario.

"Should any young adult man regardless of his genital appearance, be forced to undress and shower in a communal changing room with other naked men of his own sex?"

Of course not. No-one is forced to undress or shower in communal changing rooms where other members of their own sex are undressing.

"Is he entitled to though?"
Absolutely, he is. He's a member of that sex, and those facilities are for him. He's entitled to use them, and he's entitled to expect all female people should be excluded from them. These are his sex-based rights.

"Is he entitled to use the facilities provided for the opposite sex, though, because he has had surgery on his genitals?"
No.
Those facilities are for female people, not male people.

Should any young adult man regardless of his genital appearance, be forced to undress and shower in a communal changing room with other naked men of his own sex?"

Of course not. No-one is forced to undress or shower in communal changing rooms where other members of their own sex are undressing.

"Is he entitled to though?"
Absolutely, he is. He's a member of that sex, and those facilities are for him. He's entitled to use them, and he's entitled to expect all female people should be excluded from them. These are his sex-based rights.

"Is he entitled to use the facilities provided for the opposite sex, though, because he has had surgery on his genitals?"
No.
Those facilities are for female people, not male people.

Perfectly put Barracker.

Should a teenage trans girl, with a vagina, be forced to undress and shower in a communal changing room with naked men?

A girl is a child, i.e. under 18.

No child can get a neo-vagina created in the UK.

Even if you are writing girl when you mean woman, which is derogatory btw, then this is still not an argument for opening female spaces to males.

Saying "no you can't come into the female changing" is not then requiring the transwoman to be forced to undress and shower in a communal changing room with naked men

Women said no to one option. Men can still go and find other solutions. Like being kind to each other, creating third spaces, and a whole bunch of other things. Furthermore before a male goes as far as having a neo-vagina created and his male genitalia removed I would sincerely hope the medical team make sure the person understands the impact of that in society, which would mean considering such things as how they will change for the gym, etc.

Your supposition there is dangerously close to the kind of logic some men (and women) use after a break up. "I will turn to drink if you don't get back with me" and then when the ex refuses to go back to him, he tells people "She is forcing me to drink" or "She is sooo unsupportive of me staying sober"

**Oh I am aware. Lets google "sex assaults by trans woman in UK communal dressing area since say 1950" ? Or "man pretending to be trans" maybe? The myth first propogated by MassResistance has been debunked so many times and even admiited to by the organisation. Unfortunately the baseless fearmongering has unsurprisingly triggered some people. Changing room assaults are in fact very rare, especially gendered ones, changing room assaults in communal changing almost unknown.

The bottom line is that the myth has created so called 'risks' to some people. Men are not allowed in female communal changing rooms, where they still exist. Personally, I wouldn't want my daughter to go in one on her own when she was younger but it had nothing to do with a fear of trans women.**

So you are not afraid of transwomen but you are afraid of men? Why ? Men are no more likely to be violent sex offenders than males who identify as transwomen, the risk is the same according to all evidence available. If it's safe to share with transwomen, its equally safe to share with men.

I have two sex assaults of children in women's toilets by natal males identifying as not male.

allongeorgia.com/georgia-education-k12/did-a-georgia-school-districts-transgender-restroom-policy-lead-to-sexual-assault-of-girl/

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/

Is there a reason why this could only happen in a women's toilet and not a changing room?

Why are women and girls not allowed to say no?

I've just been googling, as kindly advised by Outraged, and these two results came up.

www.thestar.com/life/2014/01/04/transgender_mans_behaviour_in_changeroom_unacceptable_gallinger.html

idahonews.com/news/local/transgender-shopper-accused-of-taking-pics-of-woman-in-changing-room-in-idaho-target-store

transcrimeuk.com/ keeps a record of those crimes which hit the media. There may of course be others that are missed.

Worth a browse.

Should a teenage trans girl, with a vagina, be forced to undress and shower in a communal changing room with naked men?

I will give that this is a question about a young man who has had surgery. Young men would be less strong than older fully mature men.

It's implicit in this question that you are going for a young vulnerable male and suggesting they should undress with women and girls.

Also implicit in the question is the idea that a fully mature man would be reasonably excluded from female spaces, even if he identified as a woman.

So we agree there is a line, I just draw that line as all males over the age of about 8, no matter how they identify.

Why are women expected to give up single sex spaces because a small number of men lose self control if faced with a feminine looking male?

[quote PotholeParadies]I've just been googling, as kindly advised by Outraged, and these two results came up.

www.thestar.com/life/2014/01/04/transgender_mans_behaviour_in_changeroom_unacceptable_gallinger.html

idahonews.com/news/local/transgender-shopper-accused-of-taking-pics-of-woman-in-changing-room-in-idaho-target-store[/quote]
Should millions of trans people lose the right to live safely, in comfort and with dignity, because of a tiny number of events over the last decade?

You appear to imply that the only way for men to live safely, in comfort and with dignity, is if women and girls immediately agree to get naked with them.

I'd suggest that might be hyperbole.

If some men do not feel safe or comfortable sharing facilities with their own sex then that is men's responsibility and it is up to men to sort it out.

jj Should millions of female people (i.e. women) lose the right to participate safely in public life, in comfort and with dignity, because not enough sex attacks have been reported yet?

Besides. Outraged told me to google events after 1950, in their confidence I wouldn't find any. I actually found some in the last decade* on page 1 of my results. Quite something.

So don't go shifting the goalposts.

*more recent than 2007, eh?

@Barracker

You appear to imply that the only way for men to live safely, in comfort and with dignity, is if women and girls immediately agree to get naked with them.

I'd suggest that might be hyperbole.

No-one is fighting for communal changing rooms. Trans people don't want to be naked around other people (unlike some it seems). It's perfectly possible to create privacy for everyone, but trans people should not be forced to use facilties which are not designed for them and they may be at risk.

Besides. Outraged told me to google events after 1950, in their confidence I wouldn't find any. I actually found some in the last decade on page 1 of my results. Quite something.*

And how many billions of times have women used a toilet or changing room in the last decade? You are hundreds of times more likely to be struck by lightening then you are ever to be assaulted by a trans women in a women's changing room or toilet.

Question!:

Should male athletes who have all the physical advantages of a male puberty and a level of testosterone 5/ 10 times higher than the average women be allowed to compete against female athletes, just because they say they identify as women?

Should teenage boys race against girls if they say they feel female?

How many boys can run in the girls' race before it's not a girls race any more?

I' ve never been assaulted by a man in a female toilet and yet men are barred from such places. As a man is no more likely to be a predator than any male who identifies as a woman ,why are men not allowed into female safe spaces ?

Just as a general remark, it is important to distinguish between actual transpeople and transactivists, the key distinction being that, judging by their behaviour, transactivists absolutely loathe transpeople. Everything they do is aimed at making transpeople's lives as miserable as possible. All the issues being discussed on here are due to the taunts and threats of activists. The transpeople of my acquaintance, admittedly few, just want to live ordinary lives which, as we all know, are led mostly in the company of those of the same sex/gender. It is this that the activists have ruined for them. They want to blend in, but this thread is ample proof that no one will allow them to, and that is the fault solely of the activists. It's such a shame.