Bunbury’s Eighth- Sealion training for beginners

[SophocIestheFox]

Old thread nearly full!

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The useful Bunbury Guide to Spotting Community Disruptors is constantly evolving.

The best research and advice is not to engage with community disruptors and trolls. As ever, if you suspect troll activity, report it to MNHQ.

Remember there are people out there who would like to silence us by fair means or foul.

This is a continuation of the Public Service Announcement thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3944572-Bunburys-guide-to-community-disruptors-part-5?pg=40

If and when you see threads plopped into FWR, especially a curious repeat of well worn topics, maybe check for poster history before engaging. AS is your friend.

There are a number of posts/posters/threads that are reproduced on Twitter or Facebook to foment controversy using screen shots & flagging to either MNHQ to have threads or posters deleted.. Sometimes, it’s used to approach commissioning editors with ideas for articles. It’s a tiresome tactic that we always have community disruptor posters who themselves post the comments that they then highlight elsewhere as purported evidence of racism, religious intolerance, anti-men sentiments, or transphobia.

Some helpful links can be found in the ‘Break it Down for me’ and ‘It never happens’ threads but in essence FermatsTheorem recommended “that in the absence of a block/hide poster button, I suggest the following strategy (given that you're talking to the lurkers).

Do not name check the sealion. Instead, respond to a depersonalised paraphrase:

"It is sometimes erroneously suggested that blah. Blah is wrong for the following reasons (short and pithy). If you need more information re. debunking blah, here's a link."

Then (this next step is important to combat derailment) go back up thread to the last useful contribution to the discussion, make sure you do name check that contributor, and pick up the discussion from that point.”

What upsets me is that we are silenced when we talk about our own feelings, lives, histories, senses of self and place in the world.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

I'm imagining this massive quilt embroidered with all the words that women were censored from using to describe ourselves and our experiences in the world.

That's a lovely idea

Yes CoffeeTeaChocolate it is a way of silencing us because we get to the point where we have to use a massive paragraph instead of a single word ie propaganda and eventually our permitted speech becomes so wordy and arcane that no one else can understand us.

We then have the illusion that we are still publicly discussing important issues but in fact we may as well be just the few of us in a small sound proofed room.

Meanwhile some others are making their point very clearly and openly elsewhere with effigies of women in trees or hanging from gallows. They seem to be completely unopposed.

The guidelines for discussion on FWR explain why there is no list of banned words. I think they are right tbh they do need some leeway to look at things in context. It is a very tricky balance to strike.

@persistentwoman

Is there a list of forbidden words? Maybe the next Bunbury thread could contain them at the top? I have discovered that grooming is not allowed nor is delusional.

I had a deletion for using the word 'peak', not followed by the T word either. And I've since seen others use it without deletion. 🤷 My assumption is that it was reported and the word itself isn't banned. I feel badly for the moderators if they're being inundated with reports and perhaps are removing posts as a just in case.

I'm quite pissed about having to expend any time and mental energy talking about this sort of stuff at all, at a time when the Sisyphean task of achieving sex equality in the real world has undergone a massive mudslide. (Thanks to highame on the pinned MNHQ equality thread for the Sisyphus metaphor).

I keep thinking of the scold's bridle and the history of men silencing women.

Yeah it’s like what are you in jail for

I re-tweeted Julie bindel

If we can't use certain words, we need to ask questions like

Why are women's words so feared?

What can't we discuss?

What words can't we use?

What ideas are being rigorously protected and defended?

I agree we need to keep things simple. So maybe we can prompt other people to ask questions when we can't make statements.

Eg:

Why aren't we allowed to criticise Stonewall?

Ask about Stonewall's information, facts, ask for corroboration, evidence. We just have to encourage people to look directly at the sources.

Quite often, quoting sources directly is enough to show the issues very starkly.

Yes I agree Arabella. Quoting and linking directly to sources, hedging speech with phrases like 'could be thought' etc, and encouraging people to come to their own conclusions are useful techniques for us to avoid deletions and strikes.

@Sophoclesthefox

Careful pickle!

The previous Bunbury thread took from 2nd December to 13th February, so 10/11 weeks to fill up. This one was started a week ago and has hit 725 posts in that time.

Make of that what you will, but it’s quite a contrast.

Quokkas and otters are cute, and every feminist needs a good recipe every now and again, of course, but it’s quite an uptick.

Funnily enough when I just clicked on this thread I was thinking the exact same thing. I don't think it's a coincidence.

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You are not allowed to use that word in the context of trans advocacy.

Well, that's chilling, isn't it?

Socratic technique all the way!

Ask questions. Raise possibilities. Leave room for interpretation. Uncover assumptions. Chestertons fence it: what is this intended to achieve? And does it?

I know it’s a cognitive burden. And I’m heart sore that we’ve lost many marvellous women who wouldn’t contort themselves into the necessary pretzel I’m just too stubborn to give up trying.

I won’t give up either. I am worried about young girls these days.

To cheer myself up, I asked my 11-year old if she had considered her pronouns (I wanted to see if the discussion had come up). She said she/her. I told her that my pronouns for the week was “her Majesty” and that I would feel terribly invalidated if she didn’t use my preferred pronouns. And that there would be consequences. That made her laugh- and I felt better

@YetAnotherSpartacus

I'm imagining this massive quilt embroidered with all the words that women were censored from using to describe ourselves and our experiences in the world.

We could use it to cover the toxic hotbed.

We could use it to cover the toxic hotbed

OK, Quilt and fire blanket. Less romantic but more practical.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

We could use it to cover the toxic hotbed

OK, Quilt and fire blanket. Less romantic but more practical.

This was one of my favourite threads

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3444548-Vice-how-an-online-forum-for-moms-became-a-toxic-hotbed-of-transphobia

@TinselAngel

Is the "Christine" mentioned on P1 the mimmi thingy from Mermaids?

@ErrolTheDragon

I'm quite pissed about having to expend any time and mental energy talking about this sort of stuff at all, at a time when the Sisyphean task of achieving sex equality in the real world has undergone a massive mudslide. (Thanks to highame on the pinned MNHQ equality thread for the Sisyphus metaphor).

me too

@YetAnotherSpartacus

I'm imagining this massive quilt embroidered with all the words that women were censored from using to describe ourselves and our experiences in the world.

this could be added to the quilt

Yes CoffeeTeaChocolate it is a way of silencing us because we get to the point where we have to use a massive paragraph instead of a single word ie propaganda and eventually our permitted speech becomes so wordy and arcane that no one else can understand us.

A post of mine was misinterpreted by another poster because I had been forced to use an unclear term rather than a banned word. The other poster was critical of the language I had used. When I responded by saying I had to use that sort of language because the clearer language was banned, my post was deleted.

Why does Mumsnet allow reports from non members? It would save them a lot of trouble if they didn't.

I was deleted for suggesting something be allowed to go ahead to peak more people.

I wasn't aware that was a ban trigger word.

Yay to Socratic questioning.

In other news, I see a FWR stalwart summed up at the end of the Allison Bailey thread, and one of her posts mentions 'sane sex attracted.'

Perhaps we should change it to the word 'pique' - which according to google can mean both to make someone angry or to stimulate one's curiosity. I think both work.

Yes that's a good word.

I was piqued by...

Yes! Great that works well