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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Bunbury’s Eighth- Sealion training for beginners

999 replies

SophocIestheFox · 13/02/2021 21:08

Old thread nearly full!

————————————-

The useful Bunbury Guide to Spotting Community Disruptors is constantly evolving.

The best research and advice is not to engage with community disruptors and trolls. As ever, if you suspect troll activity, report it to MNHQ.

Remember there are people out there who would like to silence us by fair means or foul.

This is a continuation of the Public Service Announcement thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3944572-Bunburys-guide-to-community-disruptors-part-5?pg=40

If and when you see threads plopped into FWR, especially a curious repeat of well worn topics, maybe check for poster history before engaging. AS is your friend.

There are a number of posts/posters/threads that are reproduced on Twitter or Facebook to foment controversy using screen shots & flagging to either MNHQ to have threads or posters deleted.. Sometimes, it’s used to approach commissioning editors with ideas for articles. It’s a tiresome tactic that we always have community disruptor posters who themselves post the comments that they then highlight elsewhere as purported evidence of racism, religious intolerance, anti-men sentiments, or transphobia.

Some helpful links can be found in the ‘Break it Down for me’ and ‘It never happens’ threads but in essence FermatsTheorem recommended “that in the absence of a block/hide poster button, I suggest the following strategy (given that you're talking to the lurkers).

Do not name check the sealion. Instead, respond to a depersonalised paraphrase:

"It is sometimes erroneously suggested that blah. Blah is wrong for the following reasons (short and pithy). If you need more information re. debunking blah, here's a link."

Then (this next step is important to combat derailment) go back up thread to the last useful contribution to the discussion, make sure you do name check that contributor, and pick up the discussion from that point.”

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
YetAnotherSpartacus · 20/02/2021 08:57

I expect Michelle will use the deletion of the thread of proof of the great MN conspiracy or something.

BoreOfWhabylon · 20/02/2021 08:59

@NotTerfNorCis

Thing is 'Michelle' will be able to claim they have proof that feminists can't back up their arguments and would rather just ban any dissenting voices. I think the thread should have stayed.
Journalists requests for 'research' go via MNHQ. They are always taken down.
DaisiesandButtercups · 20/02/2021 09:11

I agree YetAnotherSpartacus but whatever had transpired here would have been twisted to suit the OP’s ends.

Winesalot · 20/02/2021 09:15

Well they are using the same tactic on twitter and being ignored. People have professionally pointed out to them that they are coming at this the wrong way. That the onus is on them to prove, for instance, that there is such thing as a gender identity that is provable in any way. And that if they were genuinely looking for two years they’d be reading far wider than TT and FairPlay, that those are starting points for further evidence only and not the holders of all evidence.

They just ignore that and state they are not debating. So, yes. They, and some others egging them on, believe it is a great tactic because even climate deniers provide something when asked.

We have seen versions before and I think we can safely expect that we will see more like this.

Sophoclesthefox · 20/02/2021 09:22

I think we are definitely seeing one of the periodic surges of interest in FWR.

DaisiesandButtercups · 20/02/2021 09:22

@Winesalot

What a bizarre expectation for women to perform on cue knowing this was likely to end up plastered over SM and the subject of a podcast?

And started in the middle of the night in the UK? Like a midnight marauder.

Who, with a healthy respect for other people, would think anyone should ‘perform’ for them, with people knowing from the outset that this was proving a point on twitter. Knowing that anything we put effort in posting will be then targeted for a ‘Debunk’ video and usernames etc will be used and frankly I have seen enough debunking videos to know to probably script it myself.

None of it is original.

This really.

I am going to sit back and watch while you all perform for me. Come on then show me your stuff. You can do better than that, yes well done, no you can’t actually give me anything can you.

Well I went to watch them perform and they were absolutely abysmal, had nothing for me at all. Exactly as I predicted. They really tried, I offered some encouragement to boost their confidence at bit but really they had nothing at all offer. No one else need bother with them now.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 20/02/2021 09:35

I agree YetAnotherSpartacus but whatever had transpired here would have been twisted to suit the OP’s ends

I agree. I support the deletion if only because I suspect that we'd be watching some posters get drawn to it like moths to a flame.

Cwenthryth · 20/02/2021 09:47

@YetAnotherSpartacus

I agree YetAnotherSpartacus but whatever had transpired here would have been twisted to suit the OP’s ends

I agree. I support the deletion if only because I suspect that we'd be watching some posters get drawn to it like moths to a flame.

I think this is accurate and fair enough, yes Michelle would always interpret things a singular way no matter what transpired. I was just thinking of ‘neutral’ observers when responding.

It is just so tiresome isn’t it. I’ve taken time out of active feministing because life is so horribly stressful and over busy anyway right now. I have some time to myself and thought I’d do some engagement this morning - but it seems plus ça change, as ever.

DaisiesandButtercups · 20/02/2021 10:09

Yours was a good post Cwenthryth, but OP was so clearly “not in the spirit” and posting against the journalism rules of MNHQ...

It is very tiresome indeed.

Winesalot · 20/02/2021 10:20

As predicted.

twitter.com/whatthetrans/status/1363055992372617216?s=21

AbsintheFriends · 20/02/2021 10:22

The twitter thread is a verrrrrry creative interpretation of what appeared here. Not a great advertisement for this person's journalistic integrity. ("I wasn't going to post here, but they have left me no choice.' Yeah right.)

In a way it's a shame that the thread wasn't closed but allowed to stand for public record, but ultimately what would be the point? Water is wet, sex is real, sealions sealion. None of those things require proof or an audience. Yawn.

Winesalot · 20/02/2021 10:23

I am sorry to those who posted in good faith. But it was completely based on lies. Maybe even the description of being a ‘journalist’ was self applied.

Winesalot · 20/02/2021 10:24

X post.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 20/02/2021 10:24

Yeah. So surprised by that.

Not good at Twitter but it does not read to me as if Michelle actually has a huge following anyway.

MichelleofzeResistance · 20/02/2021 10:26

Yeah Frankie Howerd has that one covered. Hmm

I was pretty much there anyway, but the 50:50 thread convinced me beyond all doubt. There is absolutely no point trying to explain to or reason with someone in the hope they may be inspired to notice or care about what is happening to women in this political rush. It's as has been discussed for years on the relationships board: reasonable people have this faith that everyone is reasonable, and if they just could find the right words, and break it down enough, and help that person to see their point, that person might go "Oh! I see! Oh gosh yes, that's a problem, how can we compromise and fix it?"

It's never going to happen. This is not a position that involves the capacity for this on both sides. So I'm done. I'll turn my attention wholly to those who have the capacity and need the balance of information. And who are not engaging in this debate because they require me to provide something that meets their needs.

MichelleofzeResistance · 20/02/2021 10:28

And I apologise that the meaning of the above is somewhat blurred; this torturous obfustication is not my choice.

Cwenthryth · 20/02/2021 10:28

Yes, closing the thread but leaving it to stand would probably be a good compromise. Would disprove several of the claims Michelle is making on Twitter. You’re right though, what’s the point.

The planet goes on being round :-)

NotTerfNorCis · 20/02/2021 10:49

I see the TRA is saying:

They didnt seem to want to talk about their beliefs or evidence

I explained exactly what gender critical feminism means, and I know other people did too, as well as going into the problems of prioritising 'gender' over biological sex. If the thread was still there we'd have proof. It was obvious the TRA wouldn't tell the truth about it.

theThreeofWeevils · 20/02/2021 10:54

'see how transparent I'm being.'
Yes dear, we did.

DaisiesandButtercups · 20/02/2021 11:01

Jo Rowling wrote a lovely piece on her website which was not taken down. Those who wanted to lie about what it said had no problems spreading those lies despite the essay remaining freely available for anyone to read.

I really do think that the thread needed deletion because it really wasn’t in the spirit and that was becoming ever more evident as it went on, it was most likely an easy one for MNHQ being also against their journalistic rules.

I too am sorry for those who did brilliant posts in good faith. The content of those posts would only ever have been ignored by the OP. Yes maybe neutral observers might see a few truths but I think that that thread was one that really needed to go, deleted not just closed.

I agree wholeheartedly with MichelleofzeResistance at 10:26

DaisiesandButtercups · 20/02/2021 11:03

I should say ignored or misrepresented by the OP.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 20/02/2021 11:12

Its the lies!!!!!

Firstly let me say that some posts should absolutely be deleted and i can understand SOME thread closures, however....

Thats the worse thing about the deletions and threads closures, the lies afterwards!

Some posters on here lie even when the thread is still standing and it can be proved they are telling fucking great porkies, fortunately for these selfsame posters a deletion allows them to say whatever they like about the post, so when a thread gets heated and a number of posts are deleted for personal attacks or links or something ‘not in good faith’ posters say its transphobic

I’m not even going to refer to twitter stuff, but we all know some of the utter bollocks on that platform

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 20/02/2021 11:15

Oops should clarify that I understand this particular thread close

MichelleofzeResistance · 20/02/2021 11:49

But this is a political movement based in the idea that emotions create reality, and facts are things you select from and discard based on emotions.

When law is being misrepresented via this it's not really surprising that everything else is too.

This is the fundamental thing really. There is no point in arguing with someone else's emotions based reality - they are not going to change it or shift to an objectively fact based one, or accept rejected facts. You can refuse to participate in someone else's personally created reality and insist that live and let live is reciprocal, and you can represent clearly and persistently to government, organisations and everyone else that objective and impartial reality must be the only foundation of law and policy.

DaisiesandButtercups · 20/02/2021 11:56

@MichelleofzeResistance

But this is a political movement based in the idea that emotions create reality, and facts are things you select from and discard based on emotions.

When law is being misrepresented via this it's not really surprising that everything else is too.

This is the fundamental thing really. There is no point in arguing with someone else's emotions based reality - they are not going to change it or shift to an objectively fact based one, or accept rejected facts. You can refuse to participate in someone else's personally created reality and insist that live and let live is reciprocal, and you can represent clearly and persistently to government, organisations and everyone else that objective and impartial reality must be the only foundation of law and policy.

Precisely and perfectly stated.