Allison Bailey to sue Stonewall -thread 2

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Previous thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3950877-Allison-Bailey-to-sue-Stonewall

Allison's website allisonbailey.co.uk

Statement

First and foremost, I hope that my legal action will bring me justice. I also hope that it can stop Stonewall from policing free speech via its Diversity Champions scheme.

Stonewall have signed up many companies, public bodies, voluntary sector organisations and government departments to their manifesto and their value system regarding trans rights. What is called Stonewall Law. Without most of the public realising it, a large swathe of British employers have signed up to the Stonewall value system. It has done this by trying to silence and vilify women like me who have genuine concerns about how its approach to trans inclusivity conflicts with the protections, safety and dignity of women, girls, children and LGB people.

We cannot achieve a just outcome for everyone while Stonewall are free to threaten women like me with the loss of our livelihoods and reputations. Stonewall must be held to account. I intend to do just that.

@NiceGerbil I thought that too of that pinknews article. It started off with 'I don't like this term, so it can only be regarded as abusive (and repeat) and then went all 'SWERFY' on its own ass.

I hate to mention it, but the thread is about Allison Bailey, a lesbian whom Stonewall demanded be economically punished. Not what men like to look at while they wank, or jj's musings on relative size. Of charities, that is.

Good point well made BuntingEllacott

I think my flabber was so gasted at jj saying that someone like Allison Bailey who is a lesbian, is in anyway the same as a man being a shemale that I quite forgot myself.

It's ok Humpty. Just think it's important to keep this on topic. If jj is so desperate to keep it bumped, I'd rather their contributions were simply reiterating that they don't see a problem with a lobby group demanding a lesbian be punished. I firmly believe in letting someone openly state their beliefs, but I'm not so keen on giving them a free pass to distract from the reality of their views.

And this is a charity that describes its own activities as 'lobbying' on its own website. I think it's important it doesn't wriggle off that hook.

I come back to this thread about once or twice a day. Why is it constantly being derailed?

I think it is easier to argue that you disagree with the EU definition of a Small Size Company and introduce hypothetical situations about racist tweets than to acknowledge the reality. Hence the derail and hope that the core issue goes away.

A black, working class lesbian was bullied by a charity that purports to support lesbians. This charity was trying to deprive her of her livelihood. And that bullying/persecution was due to the fact that she had the audacity to publicly state that she didn’t feel supported by that very charity. You couldn’t make this up.

I think Allison is doing an amazing job. I think the treatment of her was complete unacceptable. I am hoping that it will get more sunlight in the media soon. I have a friend who is in the “be kind” category. She is completely enraged about what happened to Allison. She is now much more open to discussions about the conflict between trans issues and female issues.

I think this case is a great starting point to discuss feminism vs trans issues with people who are new to it. Once they see the conflict, it is much easier to point out conflicts in other areas as well.

Stonewall top 100 companies 2020:

Every organisation featured below has done great work over the past year to help achieve acceptance without exception for all LGBT people. (except women of course)

www.stonewall.org.uk/full-list-top-100-employers-2020

1 Newcastle City Council
2 Gentoo Group
3 Cheshire Fire and Rescue Service
4 Pinsent Masons (Top Northern Ireland Employer)
5 Ministry of Justice
6 GSK
7 Citi
8 National Assembly for Wales (Top Welsh Employer)
9 Welsh Government
10 Cardiff University
11 The University of Sheffield
=12 Baker McKenzie
=12 Skills Development Scotland (Top Scottish Employer)
=12 Travers Smith
15 Slaughter and May
16 Central and North West London NHS Foundation Trust
17 Hogan Lovells
18 Home Group
=19 Clifford Chance
=19 Vodafone
21 Youth Sport Trust
=22 Allen & Overy LLP
=22 Greater London Authority
24 University of South Wales Group
=25 Intellectual Property Office
=25 Victim Support
27 Credit Suisse
=28 Bank of America
=28 Sky UK
=30 Barclays
=30 Department for International Trade
=30 DWF
33 Macquarie
34 Northumberland County Council
=35 Channel 4
=35 Environment Agency
=35 Eversheds Sutherland LLP
=35 Financial Ombudsman Service
39 Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board
=40 Atos
=40 De Montfort University
=40 Teesside University
=40 The Newcastle upon Tyne Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust
44 Touchstone
45 Aviva
46 Moody's
=47 Swansea University
=47 The University of Manchester
=49 KPMG UK
=49 York St John University
=51 NHS Business Services Authority
=51 Taylor Wessing LLP
53 ThoughtWorks
54 Nottingham City Homes
=55 Capgemini UK
=55 Leigh Day
=57 Riverside
=57 University of Essex
=59 Dentsu Aegis Network
=59 Financial Conduct Authority
=59 JLL
=62 Leeds City Council
=62 Linklaters LLP
=64 Fujitsu
=64 House of Lords
=64 Mayer Brown International LLP
=64 The Home Office
=68 Nottinghamshire County Council
=68 Sussex Police
70 Bury Council
71 Sainsbury's
=72 Homes England
=72 University of the Arts London
74 Irwin Mitchell LLP
75 Oliver Wyman
=76 Enterprise Rent-A-Car
=76 University of Oxford
78 Government Legal Department
79 Coleg y Cymoedd
=80 Cheshire Constabulary
=80 Pearson
82 The British Army
=83 L&Q
=83 Leicestershire County Council
85 Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Services
86 House of Commons
87 Aon
88 MI6
89 University of Roehampton
=90 Lancashire Constabulary
=90 Royal Air Force
=90 Sheffield City Council
=93 Leicestershire Police
=93 Rhondda Cynon Taf Council
=93 Solicitors Regulation Authority
=93 St Mungo's
=93 University of Reading
=93 University of the West of England, Bristol
99 Derbyshire Fire & Rescue Service
100 Public Health Wales

Billion dollar/pound companies, police, army, MI6, government organisations, all “Diversity Champions” promoting “acceptance without exception”.

“Small company” 🤣🤣🤣

Bloody hell, that list reads like a combination of my CV and my LinkedIn 🤣

And agree strongly that it’s important not to get side tracked. This case goes to the heart of the question about the conflict between supporting trans rights as Stonewall currently conceive them and supporting women’s rights, particularly lesbians.

Questioning Stonewall over this is being treated like some kind of heresy. It is one organisation and treating it as if it has somehow divinely received The Truth about how to ensure and protect the rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans people is misguided and short sighted. The topic needs to be debated in good faith and the clash of rights brought out from where it’s been swept under the carpet.

Allison Bailey is brave. She's not taking on a minnow, she's taking on a behemoth.

The Public Sector Gravy Train.

Stonewall have no interest in being kind. Stonewall's business model is making money from indoctrination and intimation. It makes offers you can not refuse, if you will. Its a racket for misogyny, racism and homophobia.

What will be interesting will be to see how that list of companies and organisations behave should Allison win. Will they be so keen to be on the 2021 “Champion” list of a lobby company that could have been found guilty of intimidation of a lesbian by the middle of the year?

"A black, working class lesbian was bullied by a charity that purports to support lesbians. This charity was trying to deprive her of her livelihood. And that bullying/persecution was due to the fact that she had the audacity to publicly state that she didn’t feel supported by that very charity. You couldn’t make this up."

This needs to be put on a billboard. It says everything anyone needs to know about stonewall.

The point about radical feminism/ GC feminism. Being interchangable. No they aren't. Loads of people who post on these boards hold views that are not radical feminist. They have come because they don't agree that men can become, literally become women, by saying some words.

Great post NiceGerbil. Yes that is exactly why I am here, I’ve never regarded myself as feminist/not feminist so I’m not clued up about the labels enough to apply one to myself.

I do the same sort of self reflection though (which some posters in here might benefit from trying) - I always question and double check and try and challenge my views but I keep coming back to the same basics.

People can’t change sex.

Women need single sex provisions for a number of reasons.

I worry for my daughter having less protection than I did growing up in the 70s (and that was patchy but the need for sex segregation was accepted)

Questioning Stonewall over this is being treated like some kind of heresy. It is one organisation and treating it as if it has somehow divinely received The Truth about how to ensure and protect the rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans people is misguided and short sighted. The topic needs to be debated in good faith and the clash of rights brought out from where it’s been swept under the carpet.

This. It is no more wrong to challenge Stonewall for allegedly exerting pressure on a law firm to illegally discriminate against a member of a rival LGB group who worked for them, than it was to challenge Oxfam for an internal culture of sexual exploitation of vulnerable women and girls in Haiti, and the consequent brushing of that under the carpet. Charities are not above the law, and are subject to complaints like any other body.

She’s almost at £114,000. I’ve saved lots by not having the kids buying lunch at school so I’ll be popping out to the garden in a bit.

The Welsh Government has in effect made Stonewall Cymru an arm of government. It's not just that they ask Stonewall for comment and input on LGB and T issues, or that they listen to ideas Stonewall puts forward, but that they look to Stonewall to formulate policy which on the whole they just rubber-stamp. In the case of the infamous Transgender Development Plan, they don't even run it by other groups who could be adversely affected — women, faith and minority ethnic groups etc.

I'm hearing that Mark Drakeford, who has done a good job in other areas, is totally in thrall to Stonewall. Show him a weepy blue-haired teenager and he's yours. The other problem in Wales is Jane Hutt, a career Labour politician who's also 'owned' by Stonewall — while apparently talking about creating a feminist government. The other problem I hear about is that many of the Special Advisors and staff are captured. If you write to Drakeford and Hutt (and probably most of the rest of them too), their assistants will filter out your letter/ email and bin it and send you an unhelpful reply. I think this is happening all over the UK and it's an attack on democracy. We need to start booking Zoom appointments so we can speak to our MPs and representatives face to face.

n the case of the infamous Transgender Development Plan, they don't even run it by other groups who could be adversely affected — women, faith and minority ethnic groups etc.

Which goes against Public Sector Equality Duty.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/public-sector-equality-duty

@NotBadConsidering

What will be interesting will be to see how that list of companies and organisations behave should Allison win. Will they be so keen to be on the 2021 “Champion” list of a lobby company that could have been found guilty of intimidation of a lesbian by the middle of the year?

I'm hoping it'll give a lot of companies the excuse they need to stop funding Stonewall. They're trapped in a protection racket, this is their way out. The Welsh Assembly and Welsh Government shouldn't be paying Stonewall to do their job for them. It's scandalous that a lobby group which is widely known to be suffering from a disastrous conflict of interests is the go-to for a government.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Questioning Stonewall over this is being treated like some kind of heresy. It is one organisation and treating it as if it has somehow divinely received The Truth about how to ensure and protect the rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans people is misguided and short sighted. The topic needs to be debated in good faith and the clash of rights brought out from where it’s been swept under the carpet.

This. It is no more wrong to challenge Stonewall for allegedly exerting pressure on a law firm to illegally discriminate against a member of a rival LGB group who worked for them, than it was to challenge Oxfam for an internal culture of sexual exploitation of vulnerable women and girls in Haiti, and the consequent brushing of that under the carpet. Charities are not above the law, and are subject to complaints like any other body.

This was exactly the sort of comparison I was thinking of.

I don’t even think it’s different groups of people who would castigate women for piping up about either of the two situations.

If you write to Drakeford and Hutt (and probably most of the rest of them too), their assistants will filter out your letter/ email and bin it and send you an unhelpful reply. I think this is happening all over the UK and it's an attack on democracy. We need to start booking Zoom appointments so we can speak to our MPs and representatives face to face.

An interesting point and it fits with Amnesty International and Amnesty Ireland’s view that people who ‘defend biology’ do not deserve political representation or a public voice. This is their way of removing both of those things. So we are in danger of becoming worse off than pre-suffragettes. I wonder if they’ll find a way if effectively removing our votes?

This thread is really bringing home to me how important Allison (and Maya) are in bringing the issues of freedom of thought and speech for all to a head.

And obviously Keira, Katie Alcock, Oxford girl and CPS girl on child safeguarding and Anne Sinnott on the legal capture/false information.

Stonewall seems to be at the heart of most of this (definitely punching above its weight) so if they go down - then what happens?

In the case of the infamous Transgender Development Plan, they don't even run it by other groups who could be adversely affected — women, faith and minority ethnic groups etc.

And when they do consult women's groups, they're 'trans inclusive' women's groups. I think the women's group currently favoured by the WG is the women's equality network (WEN). They are totally TWAW. There were a couple of threads about their new toolkit for schools the other day.

This is the problem. Women's groups which are 'trans inclusive' become groups which are all about transwomen. LGB groups which add the T become all about the T. There is no longer representation for women or for LGB people.

This is the problem. Women's groups which are 'trans inclusive' become groups which are all about transwomen. LGB groups which add the T become all about the T. There is no longer representation for women or for LGB people.

Yes, exactly. And this is why it's so important to challenge Stonewall on this.

The refusal to acknowledge that when you limit your consultation to groups who are led by and contain people with direct personal interest in not permitting female only provision you get highly biased, unrepresentative information that is actively discriminating against female people..... is an ongoing issue.

Several years ago it was pointed out officially that refuges needed to be asking and recording consultation with service users and not service providers who had their hands tied by funding requirements, or again by employees who had direct personal interest in achieving a non female-centred outcome.

The dice are so heavily stacked against females in every direction. It's open injustice, going against the existing policies on impartiality.