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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Allison Bailey to sue Stonewall -thread 2

999 replies

OvaHere · 12/02/2021 10:25

Previous thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3950877-Allison-Bailey-to-sue-Stonewall

Allison's website allisonbailey.co.uk

Statement

First and foremost, I hope that my legal action will bring me justice. I also hope that it can stop Stonewall from policing free speech via its Diversity Champions scheme.

Stonewall have signed up many companies, public bodies, voluntary sector organisations and government departments to their manifesto and their value system regarding trans rights. What is called Stonewall Law. Without most of the public realising it, a large swathe of British employers have signed up to the Stonewall value system. It has done this by trying to silence and vilify women like me who have genuine concerns about how its approach to trans inclusivity conflicts with the protections, safety and dignity of women, girls, children and LGB people.

We cannot achieve a just outcome for everyone while Stonewall are free to threaten women like me with the loss of our livelihoods and reputations. Stonewall must be held to account. I intend to do just that.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/02/2021 15:15

So "lesbian" is just an identity label, rather than a sexual orientation, is what Helen is saying. It's hardly strange that some gay and lesbian people reject this 2021 interpretation of terms which have always had a clear understanding, and which represent a political class of people they belong to which they do not believe has anything to do with recent ideas about gender identity.

titchy · 21/02/2021 15:17

notwithstanding that the definition refers to sex rather than gender,

Yes that's kind of the point Hmm

The EO covers where someone might PERCEIVE someone to be a protected characteristic. So someone cannot defend their homophobic discrimination by proving the biological sex of the partner of the person they discriminated against.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/02/2021 15:20

Why are people who support organisations like Stonewall so determined to ensure that whole oppressed classes of people like women, gay men and lesbians, or homosexual people in general, should have no words at all with which they can clearly frame and describe their specific oppression?

It's a question always worth bearing in mind, I think.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/02/2021 15:21

Not a particularly "intersectional" approach, frankly.

BuntingEllacott · 21/02/2021 15:30

Lesbians are apparently 'allowed' to be exclusively oriented to women, but they are not permitted to call themselves lesbians, because that's an umbrella term that includes anyone who fancies the term as an identity, and obviously the exclusively same sex attracted should be quiet about it because inclusive! Blah blah blah rainbow umbrellas.

Jesus wept.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 21/02/2021 15:50

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Could you please try to quote people properly Helen, your posts are difficult to parse. You can do italics by placing ^ in front of and after the text. Or to bold use a * in the same way.
Just to expand on this, to bold text, the asterisks need to be at the beginning and end of each paragraph (or any time the return key has been used), not just the text as a whole.

Ditto for (what are those things called??) and italics.

And no spaces between the * or ^ and the actual text.

Preview is your friend here!

MaudTheInvincible · 21/02/2021 16:01

They're called carets ^^

Sophoclesthefox · 21/02/2021 16:12

@MaudTheInvincible

They're called carets ^^
God, I love this board Grin I am always learning something.
MaudTheInvincible · 21/02/2021 16:17

It's brilliant isn't is? I've just learnt this from another thread:

Also a female will have two tunnels inside her. If she likes the male, she will allow her to fertilise her eggs

If she doesn’t? She sends the penis down a dead end hole

ShockGrin

MaudTheInvincible · 21/02/2021 16:18

They're talking about ducks. Probably should've said.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 21/02/2021 16:21

1. I don’t believe sexual orientations are clearly defined objective categories. But if you push me I’d say I don’t think that is a separate orientation in its own right - clearly that group of women are gay, or lesbians - whichever term is preferred - but I don’t think all lesbians fall within that group.

2. Notwithstanding that I don’t think that group is a separate orientation, obviously they are entitled to exclusively be sexually attracted to the people to whom they are exclusively sexually attracted.

3. All people with the LGBT umbrella are entitled to expect their interests as LGBT people to be represented by stonewall

Finally, some answers. So no, yes, yes.

So while I obviously still take issue with you on number 1 - just because some women who identify as lesbians now include some biologically male people in their definition of “lesbian” doesn’t mean that exclusive same sex attraction isn’t an orientation in its own right, and the EA is not in the least opaque when it:references “same sex” - you do at least agree that this group of women, including AB, are entitled to expect their interests to be represented by Stonewall.

Which is good. Because now you should be able to understand exactly why the LGBA was formed.

Not because of bigotry on their part - but because Stonewall has made it very clear it no longer supports or wishes to represent this group of people. Ditto gay men who are likewise exclusively same-sex attracted.

When asked directly if it would support those who are exclusively same-sex attracted, Stonewall Scotland replied that it “couldn’t help there”. Here in England, Stonewall may not have made such a direct statement but it has nonetheless nailed its colours very clearly to the mast and thrown biologically female people who are only sexually and romantically attracted to other biologically female people under the bus.

Stonewall has come down clearly on the side of biologically male people who identify as lesbians and the biologically female people who are happy to see them as such. It has very blatantly chosen to prioritise identity politics over and above people who are exclusively same-sex attracted, even though, as you say, they fall absolutely within the the “LGBT” umbrella - indeed, were the core of the original gay rights movement.

Exclusively same-sex attracted women (and men, to a lesser extent) have been marginalised and demonised within their own movement, their own campaigning group. It is Stonewall who has demonstrated the bigotry here, Stonewall that is bigoted against this core group of the very people it purports to represent.

So yeah, of course these people have now set up their own group to represent them, why they hell shouldn’t they? And why on earth should they have included focus on gender identity when their focus is strictly on sexuality, especially having seen how that has played out for them at Stonewall!

Yes. Lesbians who are exclusively attracted to others of the same sex should be entitled to feel supported and represented by Stonewall. But they’re not. So they’ve started a group that does support and represent them.

Get over it.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 21/02/2021 16:22

@MaudTheInvincible

They're called carets ^^
Thank you! 😘
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 21/02/2021 16:23

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Why are people who support organisations like Stonewall so determined to ensure that whole oppressed classes of people like women, gay men and lesbians, or homosexual people in general, should have no words at all with which they can clearly frame and describe their specific oppression?

It's a question always worth bearing in mind, I think.

Very good question.
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 21/02/2021 16:25

@BuntingEllacott

Lesbians are apparently 'allowed' to be exclusively oriented to women, but they are not permitted to call themselves lesbians, because that's an umbrella term that includes anyone who fancies the term as an identity, and obviously the exclusively same sex attracted should be quiet about it because inclusive! Blah blah blah rainbow umbrellas.

Jesus wept.

Yeah.
titchy · 21/02/2021 16:26

@MaudTheInvincible

They're talking about ducks. Probably should've said.
That does help Grin
Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/02/2021 16:28

Also a female will have two tunnels inside her. If she likes the male, she will allow her to fertilise her eggs

If she doesn’t? She sends the penis down a dead end hole

DP and I were literally talking about this yesterday when we saw some ducks on a walk!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/02/2021 16:29

Just to expand on this, to bold text, the asterisks need to be at the beginning and end of each paragraph (or any time the return key has been used), not just the text as a whole.

Good point, I could have been clearer!

Justhadathought · 21/02/2021 16:40

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Justhadathought · 21/02/2021 16:48

If by ‘lesbian relationship’ you mean ‘a relationship between two people who don’t have penises’ the example you give of a trans woman with a penis clearly wouldn’t fit that definition - but that’s entirely circular

Is this seriously how you are spending your resources and time? On trying to pretend that people don't know that a lesbian relationship involves two women who love and/are sexually attracted to each other? If this is the case, then it is you who is going round in circles, in trying to re-invent the wheel.

Justhadathought · 21/02/2021 16:50

I'd love to understand what was wrong with my post? Why on earth has it been deleted?

Justhadathought · 21/02/2021 16:55

Apparently stating that the conflict ( wilful negation of the self definitions and protections of others) was self created was the issue......

A conflict is constructed, then discussion of the resolution of that conflict is forbidden.

FindTheTruth · 21/02/2021 17:05

To Quote Allison Bailey

I wanted to look away, to pretend that I had not seen it; that it did not reveal the worst woman-hating, lesbian hating, misogyny that I have ever come across in my lifetime.

Thank god for Allison Bailey and the FWRs standing up for sex based rights. And 🤮to those who come on here to redefine same-sex attraction and same-gender attraction. We're not being forced into a closet that's worse than than section 28 times.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 21/02/2021 18:10

@MaudTheInvincible

They're talking about ducks. Probably should've said.
😂😂
MoleSmokes · 21/02/2021 18:40

Helen8220 - ”As I’ve commented earlier, notwithstanding that the definition refers to sex rather than gender, I really think it’s very unlikely that a court would find that discrimination was not on the basis of sexual orientation where it was directed towards a person because they were (for example) in a relationship with a non-binary person.”

This is a red herring. “Non-binary” people are either male or female so are obviously already covered by the EA2010. Depending on the sex of their partner(s), they will be perceived as either heterosexual, gay, lesbian or bisexual.

What the Equality Act says about sexual orientation discrimination

The Equality Act 2010 says you must not be discriminated against because:

  • you are heterosexual, gay, lesbian or bisexual
  • someone thinks you have a particular sexual orientation (this is known as discrimination by perception)
  • you are connected to someone who has a particular sexual orientation (this is known as discrimination by association)

In the Equality Act, sexual orientation includes how you choose to express your sexual orientation, such as through your appearance or the places you visit.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/sexual-orientation-discrimination

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 21/02/2021 18:45

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Also a female will have two tunnels inside her. If she likes the male, she will allow her to fertilise her eggs

If she doesn’t? She sends the penis down a dead end hole

DP and I were literally talking about this yesterday when we saw some ducks on a walk!

Drakes are rapey bastards with explosive corkscrew penises. You’d think someone would have suggested to the ducks by now that they identify as male in order to get some peace.