Help end medical misogyny. Sign our petition.

Help end medical misogyny.
Sign our petition.

Sign the petition

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Allison Bailey to sue Stonewall -thread 2

999 replies

OvaHere · 12/02/2021 10:25

Previous thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3950877-Allison-Bailey-to-sue-Stonewall

Allison's website allisonbailey.co.uk

Statement

First and foremost, I hope that my legal action will bring me justice. I also hope that it can stop Stonewall from policing free speech via its Diversity Champions scheme.

Stonewall have signed up many companies, public bodies, voluntary sector organisations and government departments to their manifesto and their value system regarding trans rights. What is called Stonewall Law. Without most of the public realising it, a large swathe of British employers have signed up to the Stonewall value system. It has done this by trying to silence and vilify women like me who have genuine concerns about how its approach to trans inclusivity conflicts with the protections, safety and dignity of women, girls, children and LGB people.

We cannot achieve a just outcome for everyone while Stonewall are free to threaten women like me with the loss of our livelihoods and reputations. Stonewall must be held to account. I intend to do just that.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
SophocIestheFox · 13/02/2021 18:39

@Helen8220

I was replying to someone saying that they have had experiences a trans woman hasn’t had, and vice versa, and seemed to be suggesting therefore trans women are somehow fundamentally different from cis women
Well of course they are. Can I, with my common or garden collection of Xx chromosomes, vagina, born to the chorus of “oooh, it’s a lovely baby girl” etc be a transwoman?

No, because I lack the sole qualification. And you know what that is!

It says nothing about relative value, privilege, preferences, presentation or anything else, the word woman simply describes what I am, not who

CharlieParley · 13/02/2021 18:40

In 2018, Stonewall were asked to support the following statement:

“Exclusive same sex attraction is a valid and real sexuality, there is absolutely nothing objectionable about being exclusively same sex attracted, and those who are should be able to live their sexuality free from any form of hate, discrimination, coercion or harassment, and are fully supported by our organisation as part of the LGBT community".

Stonewall's response:

"We cannot help you with that."

From
Female Only Provision:
A Women and Girls in Scotland Report
Page 55f.
wgscotland.org.uk/reports/

QueenoftheAir · 13/02/2021 18:44

Just because the Equality Act defines sexual orientation in a particular way doesn’t mean that necessary reflects the reality of people’s experiences

But that is not the point of the EA legislation. The point is to protect particular definable groups/categories from adverse discrimination.

BuntingEllacott · 13/02/2021 18:46

It's quite funny really - legally defined sexual orientations are just an arbitrary thing that doesn't reflect reality and can be totally dismissed, but a male with a GRC that no one can ask to see is definitely a woman if he says so, because that's the law.

Have a fucking word with yourselves.

Datun · 13/02/2021 18:56

Helen8220

Men can't be lesbians. Get a grip.

Lesbians have been told for bloody millennia that they need to consider humans with penises as partners. It would be funny if it wasn't so fucking tedious and predictable. Meet the old boss, same as the new boss.

Stop selling women out, ffs.

CharlieParley · 13/02/2021 19:01

@Helen8220

I don’t know what you do or don’t have in common with Eddie Izzard, I don’t know anything about you.

Seriously, on what basis?

I'm presuming your question relates to why the word cis is banned. It is an offensive concept to most of us that those women who do not come under the wide reach of the trans umbrella embody and embrace the damaging, antedeluvian stereotypes associated with the female sex. That we accept being seen as inferior, irrational and submissive.

Logically, this concept therefore means that we also embrace the disadvantages, discrimination and oppression we endure on the basis of our sex, because if we didn't we could identify out of our sex and declare ourselves men.

So what you tell women when you call them cis is that whatever bad things happen to them as female people is their own fault.

(And that's apart from the fact that empirical evidence tells us that most of us fall somewhere along the bell curve of both masculine and feminine traits. Cis assumes 100% alignment with femininity/masculinity which is of course demonstrably false)

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 13/02/2021 19:23

Great link above, Charlie.

I’m quoting from that document at some length, given the repetition of the argument that Stonewall and other LGBT groups still represent exclusively same-sex attracted women, they have just chosen to represent those whose orientation is “same-gender” based as well.

Our discussion paper addressed the attacks on lesbian women due to their sexuality, and how lesbian women are variously told that their orientation is not a sexuality if it excludes male bodied people, accused of having a fetish, told that their sexual orientation is ‘anti-trans’, and that to be a female homosexual means they are a ‘terf’... Our paper also covered how this has not been addressed by funded LGBT organisations or women’s organisations. In light of this climate, we wrote to four of Scotland’s foremost government funded LGBT organisations; LGBT Health, LGBT Youth Scotland, Stonewall and the Equality Network, in order to ask for their support for the lesbian community in Scotland. Specifically we asked if they would give their support to the following statement:

”Exclusive same sex attraction is a valid and real sexuality, there is absolutely nothing objectionable about being exclusively same sex attracted, and those who are should be able to live their sexuality free from any form of hate, discrimination, coercion or harassment, and are fully supported by our organisation as part of the LGBT community”

...LGBT Health did not respond to any of our attempts to secure a response from them in regard to our statement, even after discussing our email with us in a phone call and reassuring us they would respond. LGBT Youth Scotland replied to say they had received our emails, but did not give their support for our statement and ignored our further attempts at contact. Stonewall told us ‘we cannot help you with that’, so they formally declined. And the Equality Network told us they never provide support for statements they don’t write themselves, however they did go on to confirm with us that they do not consider women to be lesbians on the basis of being female homosexuals, because the only way they define the term ‘lesbian’, is based on gender identity (so for example they would not, then, consider women who are solely attracted to other females regardless of their identity, as lesbian women).

As such, none of these LGBT organisations gave their support to our statement, which would have given recognition that being exclusively same sex attracted (homosexual) is a sexual orientation, and would have been a clear statement that they support homosexuals as part of the LGBT community, as lesbian women and gay men, and that they reject the homophobia we outlined. Indeed all of these organisations appear to only define the terms ‘lesbian’ and ‘gay’ based on gender identity, i.e. there is not even a dual definition that recognises that many, perhaps most, lesbian women and gay men define themselves as such because they are homosexual.

Not only does this mean that these funded organisations do not advocate for, support, or represent those who are homosexual on the basis of being lesbian or gay, but this change in definitions is clearly having an impact on lesbian women in a number of ways. Perhaps most important of which is the fact that women who are female homosexuals cannot recognise themselves as lesbian anymore, or even that their homosexuality is a sexual orientation, without facing accusations of being exclusionary of male people, and facing exclusion themselves in a number of ways (as we have picked up in our survey).

Female homosexuals are being denied recognition as lesbian women by our foremost LGBT organisations, and it is this refusal to recognise female homosexuals as lesbian women that means they are unable to live their sexuality free from hate, discrimination, coercion or harassment, because these women are shamed and referred to as bigots for not being sexually open to male bodied people, and for wanting to organise in any way that does not include transwomen who self- define as lesbian.

In other words, this homophobia is solely justified by the idea that lesbian women should be romantically/sexually open to male people who identify as women. Women have to endure this kind of homophobia, as well as exclusion and self-exclusion because of it, without any national level organisations advocating for, supporting or representing them in the face of this, or even willing to recognise this as homophobia at all, or indeed how their redefinitions are contributing to this situation for lesbian women.

Stonewall couldn’t even agree that those who are exclusively same sex attracted “should be able to live their sexuality free from any form of hate, discrimination, coercion or harassment”. Nor could a single one of the other “LGBT” orgs. What is this if not homophobia?

This quote from a participant in the survey also stood out for me:

I can’t find a lesbian group in my area that is exclusively female. There are no spaces available to me where I can be with other female lesbians, discuss my experience as a lesbian, and find support exclusively from other female lesbians because all of the groups now include male bodied people who identify as lesbians. I do not wish to discuss my body or my sex life in the presence of a male”

This should be so entirely obvious, should go without saying. Women talking about their bodies and sex lives without the presence of a male person who has neither a female body nor the lived experience of growing up attracted to the same sex nor the experience of actually having sex with a person of the same sex. Moreover this is a male person who is attracted to female people - with all the history of the fetishisation of lesbians by that demographic, the history of corrective rape, of coercion and pressure and attempts to “turn” lesbians.

How could any exclusively same-sex attracted woman possibly be comfortable in that setting? It’s insane.

This person who is by all empirical measures a heterosexual male, but who by being allowed to self define as a “lesbian” has fundamentally distorted the nature of the group, and stripped it of its ability to perform the service for which it was designed, ie to be a space for lesbian women to meet and connect without the presence of anyone who is not a lesbian woman.

This is one of the ways the 21st century is worse than the 70’s for women, and having been around then I never thought I’d say that.

DeaconBoo · 13/02/2021 20:15

Stonewall couldn’t even agree that those who are exclusively same sex attracted “should be able to live their sexuality free from any form of hate, discrimination, coercion or harassment”. Nor could a single one of the other “LGBT” orgs. What is this if not homophobia?

It's eye-opening. I can't remember when it was that my view of SW went from "they're trying best to be kind and inclusive" to "wtf?!" but it was around the time that this was floating around. Deleting that tweet (mentioned earlier) proved to me this was no accident.

Justhadathought · 13/02/2021 20:32

Seriously, on what basis

On the basis that it is an ideological imposition that most here absolutely reject, and find offensive.

jj1968 · 13/02/2021 21:04

@DeaconBoo

Stonewall couldn’t even agree that those who are exclusively same sex attracted “should be able to live their sexuality free from any form of hate, discrimination, coercion or harassment”. Nor could a single one of the other “LGBT” orgs. What is this if not homophobia?

It's eye-opening. I can't remember when it was that my view of SW went from "they're trying best to be kind and inclusive" to "wtf?!" but it was around the time that this was floating around. Deleting that tweet (mentioned earlier) proved to me this was no accident.

They are under no more obligation to respond to a question from an anti-trans group who refer to trans women as trans identified males than they are to reply to a religious group who demands they answer whether the bible says marriage involves a man and a woman. They know whatever they say will be used against them, and trans people by extension, because the only point of them being asked was to generate anti-trans propaganda. Not giving an answer was a perfectly sensible response.
nauticant · 13/02/2021 21:11

I remember when this thread was about Allison Bailey. Now it's about someone else. What a shame.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2021 21:18

I can’t find a lesbian group in my area that is exclusively female. There are no spaces available to me where I can be with other female lesbians, discuss my experience as a lesbian, and find support exclusively from other female lesbians because all of the groups now include male bodied people who identify as lesbians. I do not wish to discuss my body or my sex life in the presence of a male”

This is sad.

WeAreJackieWeaver · 13/02/2021 21:20

Just done some digging for Allison. Hope she can relax this weekend after what must have been a stressful week.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2021 21:21

seemed to be suggesting therefore trans women are somehow fundamentally different from cis women

You don't say Confused there is only one type of woman, female ones. "Cis" is ideological, offensive and redundant. You have your beliefs, but no one is obliged to share them.

Impatiens · 13/02/2021 21:32

@nauticant

I remember when this thread was about Allison Bailey. Now it's about someone else. What a shame.
Yes.
McDuffy · 13/02/2021 21:36

June is going to be a big month! Thankfully there are a few paydays between then and now... 🪴

persistentwoman · 13/02/2021 21:37

It's great that this thread is being kept bumped. Keeping Allison's name and Stonewall's behaviour in the limelight is having such a positive impact.
There's a certain crowdfunder positively flourishing. Smile

NiceGerbil · 13/02/2021 21:42

Just having a look at the stonewall glossary (they have updated lesbian and gay definitions so they are more aligned now. It used to say gay men were attracted to men and lesbians were attracted to people of the female gender).

Anyway this is interesting

'GENDER
Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth.'

???

So they are saying it's about stereotyping etc. How interesting.

snow21 · 13/02/2021 21:47

The derailment is only encouraging me to donate yet again, to support Allison’s fight for justice.
Stonewall take note, thousands of women all over the U.K. are donating small amounts, often repeatedly, because we are sick of your bullying and contempt for the rights of girls and women. This isn’t a small right wing movement, this is an everywoman response. I love seeing the dozens of small donations flooding in. It’s tangible evidence of how widespread the solidarity is, so much more gratifying than having a small few massive donors.

gardenbird48 · 13/02/2021 22:11

'GENDER
Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth.'

Stonewall change their minds (and website) like the wind 😂😂. I noticed that they recently quietly dropped the QIA+ from their stated target groups. I’m sure that people who suffer from DSDs are relieved that they were eventually listened to when they told Stonewall they didn’t want their medical condition co opted as part of the ‘queering’ of everything.

Have we ever received an explanation from the people who claim to know that gender identity isn’t based on either stereotyping or ‘I just know’ based on zero actual fact.

This topic is unique in my life in that the more research I do, the less I understand even the basic principles of their assertions.

My understanding of Women’s Rights and our need to protect them on the other hand is getting clearer by the day.

Datun · 13/02/2021 22:14

@NiceGerbil

Just having a look at the stonewall glossary (they have updated lesbian and gay definitions so they are more aligned now. It used to say gay men were attracted to men and lesbians were attracted to people of the female gender).

Anyway this is interesting

'GENDER
Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth.'

???

So they are saying it's about stereotyping etc. How interesting.

It's amazing how a court case, and all the attendant publicly, suddenly sharpens the focus when reading the writing on the wall.
Helen8220 · 13/02/2021 22:16

I like you jj1968, thanks for keeping on putting your points calmly and sensibly

Helen8220 · 13/02/2021 22:20

@gardenbird48

'GENDER Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth.'

Stonewall change their minds (and website) like the wind 😂😂. I noticed that they recently quietly dropped the QIA+ from their stated target groups. I’m sure that people who suffer from DSDs are relieved that they were eventually listened to when they told Stonewall they didn’t want their medical condition co opted as part of the ‘queering’ of everything.

Have we ever received an explanation from the people who claim to know that gender identity isn’t based on either stereotyping or ‘I just know’ based on zero actual fact.

This topic is unique in my life in that the more research I do, the less I understand even the basic principles of their assertions.

My understanding of Women’s Rights and our need to protect them on the other hand is getting clearer by the day.

I went to an excellent talk recently by an intersex person. She was fully in support of trans rights, and saw the discrimination and lack of understanding she’s experienced as closely related to that faced by trans people
Helen8220 · 13/02/2021 22:22

@Justhadathought

Seriously, on what basis

On the basis that it is an ideological imposition that most here absolutely reject, and find offensive.

Is that actual official mumsnet policy?
persistentwoman · 13/02/2021 22:22

Welcome to Mumsnet Helen8220
Intersex organisations have been very clear that they do not want to be appropriated or used by trans or any other groups .