Allison Bailey to sue Stonewall -thread 2

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Previous thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3950877-Allison-Bailey-to-sue-Stonewall

Allison's website allisonbailey.co.uk

Statement

First and foremost, I hope that my legal action will bring me justice. I also hope that it can stop Stonewall from policing free speech via its Diversity Champions scheme.

Stonewall have signed up many companies, public bodies, voluntary sector organisations and government departments to their manifesto and their value system regarding trans rights. What is called Stonewall Law. Without most of the public realising it, a large swathe of British employers have signed up to the Stonewall value system. It has done this by trying to silence and vilify women like me who have genuine concerns about how its approach to trans inclusivity conflicts with the protections, safety and dignity of women, girls, children and LGB people.

We cannot achieve a just outcome for everyone while Stonewall are free to threaten women like me with the loss of our livelihoods and reputations. Stonewall must be held to account. I intend to do just that.

[quote OldCrone]Anyone know the annual membership fee for diversity champions ala stonewall?

We should have that information soon via a few hundred FOI requests.

www.whatdotheyknow.com/search/%23DontSubmitToStonewall/all

legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/02/04/shining-a-light-on-stonewalls-activities/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4158554--DontSubmitToStonewall-suggested-quick-action-by-Legal-Feminist[/quote]
We have it already - £2500 per year + VAT.

legalfeminist.org.uk/ (see link to Nottingham University response)

It's not a competition, no. And I don't have an issue with bisexuals, and yeah, it's quite annoying when a bisexual woman finds herself rendered invisible because she settles down with a man. You have your own issues, and if you personally feel that Stonewall is pulling your corner, then feel free to stick with them. I don't care.

But no, you don't get to redefine homosexual, bisexual and heterosexual as malleable labels, they are legally defined sexual orientations, protected by equality law, and those of us who understand the importance of boundaries do not consent to you doing so.

I mean, thanks for once again being open that you are ok with lesbians being punished for disobeying Stonewall for insisting that they exist and matter as a discreet sexual orientation. Excuse me taking your perspective as someone who is settled in a long term same sex relationship and is therefore someone insulated from many of these issues, with a hefty amount of 'How nice for you'.

@Helen8220

If you take any two people it’s likely they each will have had experiences the other hasn’t had, and may not be able to comprehend. I don’t feel like the fact i have periods and breasts and no penis makes my male friends and family any more fundamentally unknowable to me than my female friends. And there are many women in the world with whom I probably have far fewer experiences in common than I do with many men (eg my brother)

Not sure what that's got to do with the price of eggs!

god, preserve us from queer bloody theory. And seriously, if you don't want to fall into all the stereotypical stuff about bisexuals, you might want to rethink the whole 'it doesn't matter what genitals or secondary sex characteristics someone has' line. It might not matter to you. So what?

We have it already

It varies though. These are some earlier FOI requests about the Stonewall diversity champions scheme.

University of Edinburgh pay £2500 (+ VAT) p.a.
www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/matters_related_to_stonewall#incoming-1667284

Welsh Government currently pay £6000 (inc VAT) p.a. Total since 2011: £54000.
www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/stonewall_cymru_diversity_champi#incoming-1690501

LNER pay £5000 p.a.
www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/stonewall_champion#incoming-1664922

The Home Office currently pay £3000 p.a.
www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/amount_paid_to_stonewall_in_the_2#incoming-1640802

It will be very interesting to see what further evidence comes out about Michelle Brewer (mentioned in court as having taken significant actions) who left Garden Court and has since become a judge. Just to put here some of the principles from the Guide to Judicial Conduct:

'Judicial Oath: “I will do right to all manner of people after the laws and usages of this Realm, without
fear or favour, affection or ill-will.”

Further piece of guidance: Judges should strive to ensure that their conduct, both in and out of court, maintains and
enhances the confidence of the public, the legal profession and litigants, in their personal
impartiality and that of the judiciary.

And this: 'The principles of exercising equality and fairness of treatment have always been fundamental to
the role and conduct of the judiciary when carrying out their judicial functions and are inherent
in the judicial oath. These principles should also be reflected in conduct outside court. Chief Justice and Senior President of Tribunals have issued a message stating their expectations
and commitment in this area.'

And there are many other interesting statements as you might expect on integrity and other expectations

Whole document: www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Amended-Guide-to-Judicial-Conduct-revision-Final-v002.-March-2020.pdf

P.a??? Every year they pay that?

What for?

I don't get it.

Why do you have to be told, every year, how to avoid homophobic bullying? (their conflicting version anyway).

What are you learning next year, that you haven't learnt this year?

Yorkshire your story is not uncommon. Welcome to FWR!

Just because the Equality Act defines sexual orientation in a particular way doesn’t mean that necessary reflects the reality of people’s experiences, or that it defines it in the right way. And if a person considered themselves a lesbian and was attracted solely to people who identified and presented as female (regardless of their chromosomes or genitals) I doubt a court would hold that they weren’t protected from discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation under the Equality Act just because their attraction wasn’t based on biological sex.

On your second question, are you talking about an actual heterosexual man in a relation with a heterosexual woman, or are you talking about a trans woman in a relationship with a cis woman (or another trans woman)? In the former case, I’ve never seen a couple of that kind call themselves lesbians, and it would seem a bit strange - but ultimately it doesn’t affect me or my identity. In the latter case, I would have no problem with them identifying as lesbians. Anyway, if it’s two trans women presumably you accept they’re in a same sex relationship either way, does it really matter if they use ‘gay’ or ‘lesbian’?

It doesn’t matter to me, it does matter to you. As long as no one is being pressured into having sex with a person they don’t want to have sex with, what does it matter?

I was replying to someone saying that they have had experiences a trans woman hasn’t had, and vice versa, and seemed to be suggesting therefore trans women are somehow fundamentally different from cis women

The younger, single, gay and bi women I’ve met are all pro trans rights, and have never described any experience of having been pressured to have sex with trans men - I know that’s only anecdotal, but then so are the examples I’ve heard about (eg on Twitter) of it happening

Sorry, meant trans women not trans men (I fear this slip will attract ridicule...)

@Helen8220

I was replying to someone saying that they have had experiences a trans woman hasn’t had, and vice versa, and seemed to be suggesting therefore trans women are somehow fundamentally different from cis women

They are.

@Helen8220

It doesn’t matter to me, it does matter to you. As long as no one is being pressured into having sex with a person they don’t want to have sex with, what does it matter?

Except Stonewall are enabling and actively encouraging this.

Apart from that its fine.

How and where? I’ve been to many Stonewall events and never seen any sign of it

@Helen8220

I was replying to someone saying that they have had experiences a trans woman hasn’t had, and vice versa, and seemed to be suggesting therefore trans women are somehow fundamentally different from cis women

In what way are they the same? What do I have in common with for example, Eddie izzard?

By the way using the term cis might end up with your posts deleted.

Well obviously we disagree on that

I don’t know what you do or don’t have in common with Eddie Izzard, I don’t know anything about you.

Seriously, on what basis?

@BuntingEllacott

That's non compliant, obviously. They're fine with the ones who at the very least keep quiet about being lesbian so as not to upset the penis.

I had that said to me by the boss of an Equalities org.

Yes, of course lesbians have the right to say no to cock. But why must they say that out loud? It's sooo hurtful!

But why must they say that out loud? It's sooo hurtful!

CharlieParley

No, the common slip up wrt trans men vs trans women won't be ridiculed. It's to be expected when fucking about with the language.

I shan't be so accommodating about the smug, dismissive lesbophobia, but you're not the first poster to come here telling lesbians no one is pressuring them to accept men into their spaces or beds, so what's the big deal, while at the same time insisting that a heterosexual couple where the Male IDs as a woman is a lesbian couple. If you can't see the inconsistency there, I'm disinclined to waste time spelling it out for.

Bottom line, my consent is not yours to give in any circumstances, so I genuinely don't care what your opinion is about my legally protected sexual orientation, or why you think it is relevant that the young people you know who have benefitted from the gains made in recent decades for LGB rights and have never needed to fight for those rights are quite blase about them.

In 2018, Stonewall were asked to support the following statement:

^“Exclusive same sex attraction is a valid and real sexuality, there is absolutely nothing objectionable about being exclusively same sex attracted, and those who are should be able to live their sexuality free from any form of hate, discrimination, coercion or harassment,
and are fully supported by our organisation as part of the LGBT community".^

Stonewall's response:

"We cannot help you with that."

[quote Mumfun]It will be very interesting to see what further evidence comes out about Michelle Brewer (mentioned in court as having taken significant actions) who left Garden Court and has since become a judge. Just to put here some of the principles from the Guide to Judicial Conduct:

'Judicial Oath: “I will do right to all manner of people after the laws and usages of this Realm, without
fear or favour, affection or ill-will.”

Further piece of guidance: Judges should strive to ensure that their conduct, both in and out of court, maintains and
enhances the confidence of the public, the legal profession and litigants, in their personal
impartiality and that of the judiciary.

And this: 'The principles of exercising equality and fairness of treatment have always been fundamental to
the role and conduct of the judiciary when carrying out their judicial functions and are inherent
in the judicial oath. These principles should also be reflected in conduct outside court. Chief Justice and Senior President of Tribunals have issued a message stating their expectations
and commitment in this area.'

And there are many other interesting statements as you might expect on integrity and other expectations

Whole document: www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Amended-Guide-to-Judicial-Conduct-revision-Final-v002.-March-2020.pdf[/quote]
somewhat concerning if Judge Brewer's impartiality is not quite as impartial as we'd like...

what if she was judging on a case of sex discrimination brought by a woman for lack of single sex facility provision - could we be assured of her impartiality?

I wonder what this means for justice going forward - signing up to the ideology seems to render people void of logic and rational thinking so does that mean that anyone who has done that is not fit for that type of public office?

as an aside I am not going to waste time arguing with anyone about what a lesbian is or how the EA 2010 makes a distinction between same sex or opposite sex relationships, whatever the couple prefer to call themselves.

It was just a tweet about running for them. They got massively ratioed with people tweeting about AB because they forgot to turn off replies...