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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Allison Bailey to sue Stonewall -thread 2

999 replies

OvaHere · 12/02/2021 10:25

Previous thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3950877-Allison-Bailey-to-sue-Stonewall

Allison's website allisonbailey.co.uk

Statement

First and foremost, I hope that my legal action will bring me justice. I also hope that it can stop Stonewall from policing free speech via its Diversity Champions scheme.

Stonewall have signed up many companies, public bodies, voluntary sector organisations and government departments to their manifesto and their value system regarding trans rights. What is called Stonewall Law. Without most of the public realising it, a large swathe of British employers have signed up to the Stonewall value system. It has done this by trying to silence and vilify women like me who have genuine concerns about how its approach to trans inclusivity conflicts with the protections, safety and dignity of women, girls, children and LGB people.

We cannot achieve a just outcome for everyone while Stonewall are free to threaten women like me with the loss of our livelihoods and reputations. Stonewall must be held to account. I intend to do just that.

OP posts:
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21
gardenbird48 · 13/02/2021 13:22

@OldCrone

Another lie: www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/stonewall-uprising-50-years-lgbt-history

A link to an article by Stonewall to 'prove' that Stonewall aren't lying. Hmm

Or is this to show that Stonewall are lying?

Exactly, according to people who were actually there, Stonewall has posthumously ’trans’d’ Marsha P Johnson who was actually a gay man and was passed out on a park bench during the riots and by his own account didn’t turn up until later.

This account of events has been made by several gay men who were directly involved and have repeatedly said that Stonewall’s version that including tw is fiction.

I obviously wasn’t there so I can’t verify that personally but I do tend to believe the accounts of the people directly involved rather than Stonewall - why would a gay former founder of Stonewall feel the need to lie about it?

persistentwoman · 13/02/2021 13:26

Datun & Gardenbird48

The thread about the LGBTQ etc lesson was removed in the middle of the night because:
Message from MNHQ: Sorry all. A lot of this thread is hearsay and conjecture - and as there are already several posts which break our talk guidelines we've taken it down now .

I've wandered over to AIBU, Chat & the Coronavirus boards and haven't yet seen any threads removed for hearsay or conjecture, but no doubt I'm looking in the wrong place Confused

Datun · 13/02/2021 13:30

@persistentwoman

Datun & Gardenbird48

The thread about the LGBTQ etc lesson was removed in the middle of the night because:
Message from MNHQ: Sorry all. A lot of this thread is hearsay and conjecture - and as there are already several posts which break our talk guidelines we've taken it down now .

I've wandered over to AIBU, Chat & the Coronavirus boards and haven't yet seen any threads removed for hearsay or conjecture, but no doubt I'm looking in the wrong place Confused

Yes, I imagine that the accounts were so extreme, that it was claimed they could be false.

Personally, I see extreme accounts of how this ideology is affecting people, becoming commonplace. Nevertheless, I suspect we will have to start screenshotting absolutely everything.

Which is fine by me.

As I often remark, this sort of outside censorship is supremely counter productive.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2021 13:36

So if a trans man snogs a bloke in the street he's quite likely to face homophobic abuse for being a gay man

That's covered in the Equality Act by "harassment on the grounds of perception" so the person would be covered under sexual orientation protected characteristic. I'm not sure about hate crime law though.

jj1968 · 13/02/2021 13:36

This account of events has been made by several gay men who were directly involved and have repeatedly said that Stonewall’s version that including tw is fiction.

Even Fred Sargeant acknowledged the presence of trans people at Stonewall, although somewhat dismissed them as 'drug addled black drag queens' I believe was his phrase

Theres an interesting article here based on the memories of some of those who were there:www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/what-stonewall-means-to-the-people-who-were-there

CharlieParley · 13/02/2021 13:42

The claim that Stonewall say the riots were led by a trans woman is a lie. What they actually say is: "Lesbians and trans women of colour were some of the key people involved in the act of resistance, including Stormé DeLarverie, Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson."

And this is the lie. Marsha P. Johnson, was a gay black man who did not identify as trans. And he absolutely rejected the claim of having been there at the start. Marsha was somewhere else and arrived much later, well after the riots started.

And the whole thing, this twisting of history to fit today's ideology is incredibly homophobic. This focus on lesbians and transgender people leaves out who was the focus of police actions at the time and who made up the vast majority of the crowd at the riots: gay men.

The targets of the police, those who were most zealously persecuted in New York City in 1969 were gay men. Then a bylaw was in force that required all citizens to be able to show that they were wearing a minimum of three items of clothing of their own sex. But this wasn't a targeted attack on transgender people, (although they greatly suffered, too, because of this rule) but specifically on gay men, because this made it easier to target the most visible homosexuals, the drag queens.

And there's a persistent myth that the Stonewall Inn was a drag queen bar. It wasn't. It was a place for gay men, frequented only by a handful of transvestites and transgender people. Drag queens were only allowed in if they were well known to either the management or the clientele.

Yes, a few lesbian women were at the forefront of the crowd at the start of the riots. The first person to be arrested was a lesbian woman. The story goes that the first person who threw a brick was a lesbian woman (but eyewitness accounts as to who this was differ, and no such woman has ever come forward to claim the honour).

All of the lesbian women named were butch. They stood out because they were crossdressing as men. And that fact is now being used to push a narrative.

It suits proponents of the doctrine of gender identity to claim a much bigger part for these butch lesbians and the queens than they actually had. They are recast as transgender in aid of the claim that without the T, the LGB wouldn't be where it is today.

Allison Bailey to sue Stonewall -thread 2
Impatiens · 13/02/2021 13:43

Even Fred Sargeant acknowledged the presence of trans people at Stonewall, although somewhat dismissed them as 'drug addled black drag queens' I believe was his phrase

Are drag queens trans? How are they trans?

CharlieParley · 13/02/2021 13:48

Yes, I imagine that the accounts were so extreme, that it was claimed they could be false.

To be fair, it was us parents sharing what our kids had been taught at school. Some of which I would never have believed had it not happened to my DC and my cousin's DC. (Same year but different schools)

HPFA · 13/02/2021 13:52

@Helen8220

I’m not sure that attempting to rigidly categorise everyone on the basis of the sex or gender of who they’re attracted to/sleep with/have relationships with is particularly helpful. We don’t sort everyone into groups on the basis of whether they are attracted to people of eg others races or not
The point of being able to say you're gay, straight or bi (or variation therein) is presumably so that other people know where you're at. No-one has to say "I'm gay" but it does mean they won't get family and friends inquiring about whether they've met a nice girl yet.

It's ludicrous that this whole thing has become such a controversy. No-one is obliged to accept anyone's description of themselves as if it was a material fact. People shouldn't be expected to override the realities of their own sexual orientations because of other people's feelings about themselves.

OldCrone · 13/02/2021 13:56

@persistentwoman

Datun & Gardenbird48

The thread about the LGBTQ etc lesson was removed in the middle of the night because:
Message from MNHQ: Sorry all. A lot of this thread is hearsay and conjecture - and as there are already several posts which break our talk guidelines we've taken it down now .

I've wandered over to AIBU, Chat & the Coronavirus boards and haven't yet seen any threads removed for hearsay or conjecture, but no doubt I'm looking in the wrong place Confused

There were a few posts in the middle of the night by a poster whose name I didn't recognise which did break guidelines. They looked as though they were there for screenshots or to try to get the thread removed.

But there were also a lot of posts which the OP said she found helpful. It's a shame that a thread which contained useful information for the OP got removed because of a few offensive posts by someone else. And I didn't notice any 'hearsay and conjecture' (just checked again, as it was still open on my browser when I saw it had been deleted, and I've saved a copy).

The main issue with it might be that someone else might be able to identify the school if they have also seen that lesson. But that wasn't the reason given for removing the thread.

QueenoftheAir · 13/02/2021 14:04

Are drag queens trans? How are they trans?

I was a teenager in the 1970s, involved in the theatre, and knew a lot of gay men & boys, many of whom did a sort of drag. They were gay men (and very much into other men's actual physical bodies).

It was pretty normal. The twisting & distortion of history is clear, as is the re-defining of drag as transgender.

I blame it on today's youth being overly straitlaced and so vanilla that they have to put everything in boxes. They just can't imagine what the 70s were like ...

Even ordinary straight men had long hair, wore floaty clothes and velvet, nail polish and make up. Ordinary straight women wore dungarees and short hair. etc etc etc - a cliché now, but that's how we were.

tootyfruitypickle · 13/02/2021 14:06

Following, only just heard about this due to Twitter trending. What an excellent woman.

QueenoftheAir · 13/02/2021 14:06

People shouldn't be expected to override the realities of their own sexual orientations because of other people's feelings about themselves.

Well, Ms Bailey lost around 50% of her income for doing just that.

Gardening, anyone? Today is a good day for digging.

yourhairiswinterfire · 13/02/2021 14:10

[quote StillAWoman2]The replies to this tweet of stonewalls are awesome twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1359955364788199429?s=21[/quote]
They've deleted the Tweet now.

What a shame you won't be able to 'delete' your upcoming court case from public view so easily, Stonewall.

StillAWoman2 · 13/02/2021 14:10

As a Bi woman living with a man I’m happy LGB Alliance represents my interests.

I find women attractive whether they are classed as feminine or butch, also androgynous men as well as more overtly masculine men. Deception about a person is deeply off putting for me. I find neither transmen nor transwomen attractive.

QueenoftheAir · 13/02/2021 14:10

And to add to an old codger's reminiscences, I can remember being a show which did a stint at a gay bar - well, I say a gay bar - it was a moveable feast - every Saturday night we'd wait for the telephone call to see where we were to perform later that night, because it was all illegal, and had to be kept secret.

That was the reality of gay men's lives, and that's what the manifesto above refers to. Not transwomen are women beliefs.

It was about gay male culture. Even some gay men are now starting to see how their culture is being destroyed, drip by drip, nowadays.

QueenoftheAir · 13/02/2021 14:13

I find neither transmen nor transwomen attractive

I'm a boring old straight woman. I like male bodies, and when it comes down to it, male genitalia, and heterosexual sex (whatever that means Grin ). Not interested in anything else.

Am I a bigot?

littlbrowndog · 13/02/2021 14:16

Great post Charley

littlbrowndog · 13/02/2021 14:17

That’s awful queenofair

StillAWoman2 · 13/02/2021 14:17

@QueenoftheAir

I find neither transmen nor transwomen attractive

I'm a boring old straight woman. I like male bodies, and when it comes down to it, male genitalia, and heterosexual sex (whatever that means Grin ). Not interested in anything else.

Am I a bigot?

Neither of us are bigots for our sexual preferences.
littlbrowndog · 13/02/2021 14:18

Sorry not cos you are straight but that you had to hide where gay men were gathering

Mummyoflittledragon · 13/02/2021 14:20

Thanks for the comments and I appreciate all the help. I’d rather not derail this thread except to say, the amount of money I pledged to help Allison Bailey was considerably higher than it would have been the week before. 😬

jj1968 · 13/02/2021 14:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Impatiens · 13/02/2021 14:31

jj1968 your posts are so relentlessly purile

OvaHere · 13/02/2021 14:31

Not sure what any of this has to do with Allison's case.

OP posts:
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