Allison Bailey to sue Stonewall -thread 2

[OvaHere]

Previous thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3950877-Allison-Bailey-to-sue-Stonewall

Allison's website allisonbailey.co.uk

Statement

First and foremost, I hope that my legal action will bring me justice. I also hope that it can stop Stonewall from policing free speech via its Diversity Champions scheme.

Stonewall have signed up many companies, public bodies, voluntary sector organisations and government departments to their manifesto and their value system regarding trans rights. What is called Stonewall Law. Without most of the public realising it, a large swathe of British employers have signed up to the Stonewall value system. It has done this by trying to silence and vilify women like me who have genuine concerns about how its approach to trans inclusivity conflicts with the protections, safety and dignity of women, girls, children and LGB people.

We cannot achieve a just outcome for everyone while Stonewall are free to threaten women like me with the loss of our livelihoods and reputations. Stonewall must be held to account. I intend to do just that.

@Helen8220

As a bisexual cis woman in a long term relationship with another woman, I doubt that I would ever want the LGB Alliance representing me or my interests. I don’t know a single gay or bi person (in real life) who believes LGB Alliance is genuinely interested in our rights, as opposed to campaigning against the rights of trans people

Well don't then. Piss off to Stonewall. That doesn't mean that others should be allowed to be represented by the LGB Alliance if they think they represent their interests better.

And the LGB alliance ARE not campaigning against the rights of anyone. They are defending their own sexual boundaries and existing protections. Which is a legitmate thing.

At the end of the day you are not a lesbian. You don't get to tell a lesbian who should represent them.

But, screeching back to the topic at hand, I for one am very much looking forward to see when, how and by whom Garden Court Chambers were induced to discipline a lesbian for setting up a group focusing on lesbians, bisexuals and gay men.

Same here.

Helen8220 cis is a banned term on here. And your post is pretty meaningless, if you can't define gay or woman.

@OldCrone

Another lie: www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/stonewall-uprising-50-years-lgbt-history

A link to an article by Stonewall to 'prove' that Stonewall aren't lying.

Or is this to show that Stonewall are lying?

Linked to the actual lie we're talking about-that 'Malcolm Michaels Jr was a transwoman'. He stated HIMSELF that he was a gay man, a drag queen, NOT a woman. Funny how TRAs bang on about respecting everyone's identity, but completely rewrite someone else's to suit them, when the person is no longer here to correct them.

Another favourite lie of TRAs is that the ''transwoman Marsha (Malcom's drag name) threw the first brick'' at the riots. Bullshit. In Malcom's own words, the riots were well underway when he turned up.

Johnson denied starting the uprising. In 1987, Johnson recalled arriving at around "2:00 [that morning]", that "the riots had already started" by that time and that the Stonewall building "was on fire" after police set it on fire.

A few months ago, Fred Sargeant got into a ding dong with an LGBT twitter account that was remembering ''transwoman of colour Marsha P Johnson, who died of Aids.'' Malcolm was found dead in Hudson River, he didn't die of Aids. Crass.

Lies, lies, lies.

Here’s the LGB Alliance mission statement

Our Mission

To advance LGB rights
We advance the interests of lesbians, gay men and bisexuals, and stand up for our right to live as same-sex attracted people without discrimination or disadvantage. We will ensure that the voices of lesbians, gay men and bisexuals are heard in all public and political discussions affecting our lives.

To highlight the dual discrimination faced by lesbians
We amplify the voices of lesbians and highlight the dual discrimination experienced by lesbians as women who are same-sex attracted in a male-dominated society.

To protect children who may grow up to be LGB
We work to protect children from harmful, unscientific ideologies that may lead them to believe either their personality or their body is in need of changing. Any child growing up to be lesbian, gay or bisexual has the right to be happy and confident about their sexuality and who they are.

To promote free speech on LGB issues
We promote freedom of speech and informed dialogue on issues concerning the rights of lesbians, gay men and bisexuals. We assert that different opinions, even those we may disagree with, should be heard as part of the public debate

And here’s the great news- if you disagree with any of that, for whatever reason, then you just have to not support them. Easy! What is less fine is accusing them of being a “hate group” and trying to prevent their founders from being employed. I understand that this sort of nuanced thinking is not popular in the outrage economy.

Money is one of the key factors here and where a lot of the issue lies. I suspect it wouldn't matter very much financially to Stonewall if every LGB person in the UK stopped donating or bequeathing to them because their business model now is built around state funding plus money from corporates and public/third sector organisations.

Just to correct this Stonewall recieved around £1.7m in their last reporting period from donations and legacies, and around £1.2m from fundraising activites such as events, raffles etc. This comes to roughly 40% of their funding. The bulk of the rest comes from their various corporate training schemes, and just £700,000 from governments.

It appears a lot of lesbians and gay men are quite happy to put their hands in their pockets to support Stonewall.

*shouldn't be allowed.

I’m not sure that attempting to rigidly categorise everyone on the basis of the sex or gender of who they’re attracted to/sleep with/have relationships with is particularly helpful. We don’t sort everyone into groups on the basis of whether they are attracted to people of eg others races or not

@OldCrone

Surely it's more that people should not be discriminated against on the grounds of being LGB, and some LGB people may sometimes be in a relationship or experience an attraction based on gender. And that's okay, and they shouldn't be expelled from being lesbian or gay for doing so, not least because they may well still face homophobia.

So should lesbians be accused of transphobia if they are only attracted to female people?

No absolutely not.

Stonewall football on BBC atm. The irony is palpable.

The claim that Stonewall say the riots were led by a trans woman is a lie. What they actually say is: "Lesbians and trans women of colour were some of the key people involved in the act of resistance, including Stormé DeLarverie, Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson."

Well yes, and Malcolm wasn't a lesbian, and he wasn't a transwoman, so why is his name listed there under lesbians and transwomen of colour?

@Helen8220

I’m not sure that attempting to rigidly categorise everyone on the basis of the sex or gender of who they’re attracted to/sleep with/have relationships with is particularly helpful. We don’t sort everyone into groups on the basis of whether they are attracted to people of eg others races or not

Thats your belief though. You are not bothered by these things. By your own admission that you are attracted to both.

If you only get off on certain things or are attracted to certain things you can't just change that! Nor be told that you are bigoted for it.

Your lack of empathy is appalling.

@Helen8220

I’m not sure that attempting to rigidly categorise everyone on the basis of the sex or gender of who they’re attracted to/sleep with/have relationships with is particularly helpful. We don’t sort everyone into groups on the basis of whether they are attracted to people of eg others races or not

Sure, except you cant protect lesbian, gay and bisexual people, if you can't define them, in that case. So stonewall's out for a start.

Then you can have a stab at rewriting the entire equality act. Because if you can't define the cohort who share the protective characteristic, then it's a complete waste of paper.

Just read this thread all the way through & it’s been really helpful & informative. Thank you. Off to get my spade out.

@Mummyoflittledragon Transgender Trend says that any organisation, school etc. that’s promoting Stonewall’s trans agenda is probably opening themselves up to legal issues. www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-school-champion/ Best thing I think one can do is report it to your local Councillors who are on education/safeguarding committees. It will not only alert them to what is happening in any school signed up as a “Stonewall Champion”, it also alerts them to the fact that you disagree with a trans agenda that is both anti-women and homophobic - particularly important when it comes to local elections. Report it to your MP as well.

People are entitled to support Stonewall's gender identity agenda, but you can't say that LGB Alliance isn't needed.

Stonewall post-2015 perfectly explained by the late, great Magdalen Berns:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=JkK7zisjoDk

As a woman who is attracted to other women, and living in a relationship with one, I’m not sure how the fact that I am also attracted to men (though I’m unlikely to ever have another relationship with one) means that my interests are different to those of lesbians

But it’s just a stepping stone to TWAW and probably why the school suggested following someone on Instagram or Snapchat to show your support. The random person can then fill in the gaps.

Wha?

Doesn't that go against internet safety lessons?
Yes. The thread on it was removed..

I noticed that thread had disappeared Mummyoflittledragon - I wonder who didn’t want us to discuss that? I don’t remember anything untoward.

Of course you can - a person shouldn’t be harassed or discriminated against on the basis that they are (or are believed to be) attracted to others of a particular sex or gender. Done

@gardenbird48

But it’s just a stepping stone to TWAW and probably why the school suggested following someone on Instagram or Snapchat to show your support. The random person can then fill in the gaps.

Wha?

Doesn't that go against internet safety lessons?
Yes. The thread on it was removed..

I noticed that thread had disappeared Mummyoflittledragon - I wonder who didn’t want us to discuss that? I don’t remember anything untoward.

I wonder on what basis it was removed.

Crass.

Crass is refusing to use the name someone had chosen for themselves even in their death to make a political point.

@Helen8220

As a woman who is attracted to other women, and living in a relationship with one, I’m not sure how the fact that I am also attracted to men (though I’m unlikely to ever have another relationship with one) means that my interests are different to those of lesbians

You are imposing your beliefs on others regardless of your own position which may have implications for them.

You are in a secure relationship and not in a position where you might find yourself in a vulnerable position whilst dating and feel coercised into things you are uncomfortable with.

That matters.

Interestingly, on the BBC football item, the discussion (on the bit that I watched) was confined to gay men. However, the interviewee referred to the Stonewall flag as the "trans flag".

@SophocIestheFox

Oh wad some Power the giftie gie us To see ourselves as ithers see us.

Been pondering on that line this morning. Important to remember that the reality of the self is set in the context not just of ones own perception, but in what society sees. Much out of fashion these days.

But, screeching back to the topic at hand, I for one am very much looking forward to see when, how and by whom Garden Court Chambers were induced to discipline a lesbian for setting up a group focusing on lesbians, bisexuals and gay men.

Me too. Surely they have nothing to hide - 'right side of history' and all that...

@yourhairiswinterfire

The claim that Stonewall say the riots were led by a trans woman is a lie. What they actually say is: "Lesbians and trans women of colour were some of the key people involved in the act of resistance, including Stormé DeLarverie, Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson."

Well yes, and Malcolm wasn't a lesbian, and he wasn't a transwoman, so why is his name listed there under lesbians and transwomen of colour?

Perhaps the clearest depiction of Marsha's views is the STAR Manifesto she published with Sylvia Rivera.

 The oppression against Transvestites of either sex arises from sexist values and this oppression is manifested by heterosexuals and homosexuals of both sexes in the form of exploitation, ridicule, harrassment, beatings, rapes, murders.

Because of this oppression the majority of transvestites are forced into the street and we have formed a strong alliance with our gay sisters and brothers of the street. Who we are a part of and represent we are; a part of the REVOLUTIONARIES armies fighting against the system. 

1. We want the right to self-determination over the use of our bodies; the right to be gay, anytime, anyplace; the right to free physiological change and modification of sex on demand; the right to free dress and adornment.
2. The end to all job discrimination against transvestites of both sexes and gay street people because of attire.
3. The immediate end of all police harrassment and arrest of transvestites and gay street people, and the release of transvestites and gay street people from all prisons and all other political prisoners.
4. The end to all exploitive practices of doctors and psychiatrists who work in the field of transvestism.
5. Transvestites who live as members of the opposite gender should be able to obtain identification of the opposite gender.
6. Transvestites and gay street people and all oppressed people should have free education, health care, clothing, food, transportation, and housing.
7. Transvestites and gay street people should be granted full and equal rights on all levels of society, and full voice in the struggle for liberation of all oppressed people.
8. An end to exploitation and discrimination against transvestites within the homosexual world.
9. We want a revolutionary peoples’ government, where transvestites, street people, women, homosexuals, puerto ricans, indians, and all oppressed people are free, and not fucked over by this government who treat us like the scum of the earth and kills us off like flies, one by one, and throws us into jail to rot. This government who spends millions of dollars to go to the moon, and lets the poor Americans starve to death. 

POWER TO THE PEOPLE
S. T. A. R.

@Helen8220

Of course you can - a person shouldn’t be harassed or discriminated against on the basis that they are (or are believed to be) attracted to others of a particular sex or gender. Done

Stonewall's definition of homosexuality does not permit this though. If it had clear water between the definition as homosexual and homogender as being different things and it was necessary to acknowledge the difference - and that both are ok - but respect of the other's own boundaries must be maintained that would be fine.

But its not.

The fact that you have transwomen trying to declare themselves homosexual for being attracted to females and insisting they are therefore lesbians and must be accepted by all lesbians or else and this is backed up on an institutional level is not ok.