ONS reversed decision to record census by sex

[purpleboy]

mobile.twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1359875526261882887?s=19

The ons has reversed its decision to record the census next month by sex.

Time for a mass campaign? Shall we all ID as men?

Might make them take notice, especially if they hear in advance?

No I won't spoil my census. We've got to do something though. Riot? Smash shit up? I feel like it.

I had a interaction with some kid on twitter just now and I had an epiphany. She really, truly, genuinely believes that her generation have evolved, (she doesn't actually understand what evolution is), but she seems to think that they are in some way more enlightened, on a higher plane of conciousness. Unbound by stuffy rules and definitions. It's so fucking depressing and it's real and by the time she has kids and understands it will be too late.

Cormorant I have every sympathy with you

In a previous job role I've sat round a table with piles of data doing forecasts and planning for community need - fictionalising it makes it an unjustifiable waste of everyone's time and money.

It harms no one to ask them in a confidential document to record their sex at birth, legal sex if different and their preferred named gender alongside it (and make the second two optional to share if wanted). These are facts. They don't change. The data is necessary and some adult responsibilities are more important than personal feelings.

How does making it impossible to tell how many trans identified people there are mesh with the cries of 'you t..fs want us not to exist' ?
Surely, as pps have said, it would work towards a fair distribution of funds if the government has proper figures?
(Ah, I may just have seen the problem with my argument...)

she seems to think that they are in some way more enlightened, on a higher plane of conciousness. Unbound by stuffy rules and definitions.

Yes, every generation does. It's all dancing with the hippies in central park, the joy of a new dawn.

And then a couple of decades later, it dawns on you that your parents and previous generations aren't stuck, stupid old fogeys who didn't get it, they just had a fuckton more life experience than you. And you now realise what you were too naiive to realise but they understood. And kept to, despite your constant wittering at them.

If it’s based on your passport, which I don’t have, do I not exist?
If I don’t exist, why am being billed tax and council tax......
they can b**r off.

As BuntingEllacott wrote, ideological TRAs are not doing this to support trans people getting services they need. One thing that comes to my mind is that arguments in support of the ideology sometimes require there to be many trans people and sometimes require there to be very few. Accurate data would compromise this fluidity in the basis of arguments.

Cormorant, I appreciate your concern and naturally your job matters to you, if not me.

Perhaps you could have a word with the research council, the ESRC. They're social scientists, aren't they, funding research into economic and social matters, with public money. I wonder if their priorities are the same as yours. I doubt they are mine.

This year it is a digital form so I'm thinking of ordering a paper copy so I can make it quite clear with an old fashioned pen how I am defining my sex.

This year it is a digital form so I'm thinking of ordering a paper copy so I can make it quite clear with an old fashioned pen how I am defining my sex.

Good idea - and I might answer the gender identity question - gender critical

@nauticant

As BuntingEllacott wrote, ideological TRAs are not doing this to support trans people getting services they need. One thing that comes to my mind is that arguments in support of the ideology sometimes require there to be many trans people and sometimes require there to be very few. Accurate data would compromise this fluidity in the basis of arguments.

This is an excellent point. The fluidity (no pun intended) of the arguments being used to undermine both Safeguarding and the rights of women and girls rely on a lot of mythologizing and passing on of dubious statistics.

On every point where better data has been sought, ideological TRAs have stymied it, be it medical research or statistical analysis. The only people clamouring for accurate, useful data are the ones being characterized as 'anti-trans' and threatened in various ways by the self-styled good guys.

This is a very, very important thing to keep in mind the next time someone tells you trans people are the most oppressed demographic of all. Ask them 'how can you possibly know without accurate data, and why would not want the best data to secure the best outcomes?'

It usually quickly becomes apparent who cares about trans people, and who is just a thoroughly unpleasant human who enjoys bullying women via any means possible.

Does anyone know how to get hold of a paper version? I plan to cross the question out & replace it with "Sex:"

Perhaps the objection can include mass ordering of the paper version in order to make the objection as clear as possible?

Huffington Post wanting a "non binary journo" to write on gender options in official paperwork. So if you have short hair and wear trousers maybe get in touch?

@CormorantStrike in your position/field, is there a body you can raise this with as a matter of urgency? First port of call would be the ONS so that's no good, but who would the ONS pay attention to? anyone?

I don't understand why they don't have 2 questions

What is your sex
What gender do you identify as

The data from the census would be far more useful!!

Not.

Fit.

For.

Purpose.

@allpicklemewalnuts I guess it would be the Office for Statistical Regulation (OSR). I know they have engaged a bit with this issue in relation to Scotland but nothing seems to have come of it.

The issue I have personally is that I can't afford to lose my job (I have two children and bills to pay!) so don't feel like I can make my views known publicly. It is an absolutely crazy situation to be in.

There are only now different groups dedicated to uncovering and noting the facts of different groups of people. ACTUAL FACTS.

For example: Lesbian groups on - and offline - recording the accurate existence of lesbian women in previous times.

Ethnicity related groups recording the accurate genesis, evolution and successes of varied ethnic pioneers eg black women pioneers in Space exploration. Mixed-race world leaders. Asian female pioneers.

By demanding this of its citizens, the UK Cenus government task force is demanding the recording of lies and inaccuracies, that future historians will have to pick through. That will cost future governments money and goodwill.

I assume this means that the ONS guidance on the sex question will be the wording used in trials?

If that's the case I can not (honestly) answer the question with my birth sex.

You raise an interesting point Thing.

Those for whom practicing law in the UK is allowed. Any thoughts, hints, opinions?

I'm sorry, Cormorant.

But the data will be useless, and what is more they need to be shown clearly that the data is useless.

It potentially will fuck up this lot of data, but it's going to be useless nonsense in any case.

Longterm, hopefully the case might be made that data needs to be accurate and reflect reality.

Someone started a thread asking why religion is declining in the UK.

I haven't read all of it. Only the OP and the very first few posts.

It's not declining necessarily. It's just that sociologists their government led grant givers are recording inaccurate information.

I believe it's illegal to give false info on the census.

So this is very interesting indeed.

I can see that @CormorantStrike . But rather than raising it as an ideological, feminist issue which would certainly risk your job, can't you just raise it as an incomplete data issue? Point out the ways it makes data muddy? That we need to identify the numbers of natal men, natal women and trans men and women? That by mixing some of the categories, they all become useless.

Raise it clearly as a data processing issue, not a gender critical one.

RandomMess

There are two questions. One on sex and a later optional one on gender identity.

The problem is they are saying that the question on sex can be answered anywya you want - ie not specifically the biological sex you were born.

That is the issue and has been from the start. That the ONS has been persuaded despite all the evidence that you can choose a sex.

I wonder which other census questions which are meant to reflect the truth can be answered how you feel. ie I feel 20 years younger than I am!