The same as racism? Help me out please.

[talkingdeadscot]

So, after yet another discussion last night, my DH said that my insistence that I would not allow a TW to perform an intimate examination at the doctors on me as akin to racism. I don't think it is but I can't articulate why. Why is my refusal to accept TWAW as discriminatory as racism? He says it's because I'm denying a minority exists and has rights. I said I'd also refuse a man but apparently TWAW so that's not the same even if I personally refuse to accept that TWAW (which I do)

Help!

God OP he has so little respect for women :( how do you stand it? I’m so sorry you have to listen to this nonsense

Im sorry for what your going through, I have this argument with family and its toxic. Even at the point they are trying to say its an insignificant detail that no reasonable person would even think twice about, their fear of having an open discussion indicates the opposite It really is cult like and realising family members are going along with it is a shock.

I'm sorry to say it seems like your DH has a deep, possibly even subconcious belief in male supremacy, this must be horrible for you to be confronted with.

I guess the only thing you can do is quietly explain to him that yes, this does affect how you feel about him on a very fundermental level

@Biscuitsanddoombar

So what about TW who commit rape? They are obviously violent like men

Ah but they obviously weren't real TW with real gender dysphoria. Didn't seem to have any idea how we tell the difference.

It's blatant, wilful dismissal of any real concerns because it doesn't affect him.

When someone tells you who you are. Listen.

Who they are

Apparently long term it's better for women to have their sex spaces removed if that's what the majority want

This will mean excluding some females from any spaces or provisions at all so that all males may take their preferred choice from all the available spaces and provisions.

If he's into social justice and kindness how does he justify that?

Many of those females will be in that excluded group because of a history of being harmed, traumatised, abused, being of minority faiths and cultures, because of disabilities.

Why do third spaces and choice not work for him, in which everyone's needs are met? Why do some female people in his view of this better future have to be harmed and excluded?

I'd suggest too he might like to think about the increasing numbers of female people standing up and saying no, becoming increasingly angry, increasingly realising the highly sexist way in which this ideology sees females as intrinsically lesser humans whose existence is for meeting male need and whose feelings don't matter compared to male feelings. What does he see as the end point here as the court cases stack up and women get increasingly and resoundingly pissed off with all this?

Can he think of any oppressed group in history who have just learned to enjoy their oppression and settled happily into it? How does he feel about historical oppression of one class of people to serve another? Has he participated in any celebrations of those oppressive regimes being overturned?

Because that would make him a bit of a hypocrite really.

What an awful situation for you, I'mnot suprised you're so upset.

Don't do yourself down, your husband might have a phd but hes not got much sense has he? Do he and your daughter often act superior because of their education? It seems to me they don't respect you, and with a lack of respect they don't have to care about your personal boundaries.

I hate this attitude that women exist for men, but so many men have it without even realising it. This is the problem, he sees it as an abstract academic talking point but for you its real life.
For me personally I have been examined by male and female HCP but consent is key and I've always felt comfortable enough to say I'd rather be examined by someone else or to have a chaperone.
I think the thing for some men is if they have no health issues intimate examinations are a very rare experience for them so they cannot relate to the experience.

I'm sorry this is happening, it's natural and healthy in a long term relationship to not agree with everything, DH and I don't agree on everything but when it comes to personal boundaries they have to be respected.

I'm sorry you're having this experience with your DH talkingdeadscot.

I don't know your DH, so I don't know what he's generally like, but I had similar conversations with my DH a couple of years ago and he did not understand the issue either. Same with my adult sons.

There's a lack of understanding that comes from a lack of experience and that was certainly happening in my family. I did eventually get through to my DH and I know he really gets it now after listening to him explain the issue to fellow business men at a big birthday bash last year.

What I would recommend, beyond the many good tips you already received, is to make it easier to focus on what matters by being careful with the terms you use.

I do not ever use the words transwoman or transman. The way our brain works, we focus on the root word, which in this case fudges the issue.

I speak of males and females (female people or male individuals or female person or male doctor etc) and males/females who identify as trans.

So I start with the basic premise:

Female people in the UK have the right - in language and in law - to define themselves in a category of their own, separately from males. All males.

From this right derive female-only spaces, services and provisions. Sports, scholarships and awards, educational programs, prisons, rape crisis centres and refuges. Political positions and women's rights groups.

If he rejects that premise, don't waste your time arguing about what makes males who identify as trans female. I would first focus on why we have CEDAW, an international human rights treaty to eliminate discrimination against women and girls, and why Article One of this treaty roots this discrimination in our sex.

If he understands why female people need separate and specific protections, then you can move onto arguing why we must be able to exclude all males from accessing these protections, regardless of their identity.

So I would ask my DH to explain why one subgroup of male HCPs is exempt from the restriction female patients are allowed to place on all other males when no other subgroups of males are (same-sex attracted males for instance)?

I also don't use the word gender in debate. I use sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes. I don't talk about gender identity but about personal preferences for the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with a particular sex.

And if necessary I explain why these stereotypes are harmful to all female people and what it means to enshrine them in law or policy.

I explain that policies that allow the inclusion of one subgroup of male people in female-only provisions of necessity lead to the exclusion of several subgroups of female people from those provisions. And I ask where they will be supported. And how that same subgroup of males will then be excluded from any new female-only provisions specifically created for the subgroups of female people excluded from mixed-sex provisions.

I hardly ever discuss how males who identify as trans could possibly be women or what makes a woman or anything like that. I state my definition (adult human females), but since I only ever talk of female and male people, I don't see a need to spend any more time on that argument.

Just to add too:

If the massive majority of female people are all for this and see no issues, why is the political lobby driving it constantly upping the punishment factor and the forcible control in law to ensure females can't even name the problems they're experiencing?

Ask him to come on the thread and explain to us how we are wrong. Should be no problem for him right?

I think it’s a stupid argument, because you’d never know if they were a trans woman. You may have already been examined by a trans woman and not know, not worth being worked up by and I can see your DHs side

Separate the Trans from the racism

does he accept that mixed race exists

but mixed chromomes do not?

Fairy try reading the thread. That's been addressed multiple times.

Does he know someone personally who's trans? This can have an effect on how they see the ideology from an objective viewpoint.

Does he see all TW as women? Even the beardy ones? I'm sure many TW would strive for the passability of someone like Blair White but few will ever attain it. Would he date Alex?
www.grrlalex.co.uk/what-is-transgender/

Yes but it's the only argument they have Michelle so they'll hang on to that with everything they have.

@HermitsLife

No, my daughter isn't superior at all, we have a very good relationship. We don't talk about it much but she's a grown up with her own family so she's not around all the time.

I think DH does respect me, at least I did. We have had to have conversations about how, because of my health, he has slipped into infantilising me at times but I don't feel like that at the moment.

The difference is, he compartmentalises everything whereas for me, being female is intrinsincly bound up with who I am and my experiences. I cannot separate these things. He's more abstract. I cannot deny that's it's bought up some very uncomfortable realisations though. What a sh*t position to find myself in

Ah again with the idea that it’s just so hard to tell a man from a woman

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You're not denying that this minority exists and has rights. You're saying that women have rights to dignity in medical care, and the right to ask to be treated by a member of their own sex. You don't have to believe in what they or your DH believes. He's a misogynist.

Out of curiosity: where is this a right, specifically? I've never heard of this right before.

@fairynick

I think it’s a stupid argument, because you’d never know if they were a trans woman. You may have already been examined by a trans woman and not know, not worth being worked up by and I can see your DHs side

It absolutely is worth getting worked up about, these things matter to me, my identity, my future and the future of girls and women everywhere.

Are there any other subjects that your DH thinks he’s more expert on than people with lived experience?

As a straight man, would he straightsplain to gay men about homophobia or as a father would he fertilitysplain to childless men about how they feel? Or would he accept that as they are the ones with loved experience they know more about it than him!

I'm so sorry, OP. I couldn't stay married to someone who thought like this. How can someone claim to support women's rights and go along with the gender identity bullshit? I'd be consulting a solicitor and starting the divorce process.

OP, it's very hard trying to dent such socialisation, and he seems to have picked up quite a few daft TRA talking points.

He should, at the very least, agree to give the issue between you some attention, if you explain that it's very important to you.

However reluctant he might be, the fact that it's important to you, should be enough.

Do you think he might be swayed by what TRAs actually say? Bearing in mind they are the ones advocating for access.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3955276-resource-thread-of-tra-screenshots

And of course, there is this recent programme, which brings together several of the different issues under one roof.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=tzId7X9NtR0&feature=youtu.be

It's an hour and a half. But he should prepare to give you that over an issue that is so close to your heart.

You may not be able to persuade him in a conversation, but at the very least, he ought to be able to agree to give it some of his time. And afterwards, you could agree to do the same.

The good thing is, this issue only ever goes one way.

No one - transperson, woman, or man - has a ‘right’ to perform an intimate examination on you.

You do, however, have rights enshrined in law that mean you can decide who performs intimate examinations on you.

Why does he want to ignore your right, which does exist in fact and in law, and give precedence to a trans person’s desire to have their identity validated by performing an intimate examination on you?

No because TWAW
They haven't been socialised as men because gender dysphoria (not sure how that works)
That means they aren't violent like real men are and women are being irrational excluding them.
TW and women's struggles are the same

There's a lot here talkingdeadscot that suggests to me he doesn't understand the typology of transsexuals, at all. Or what socialisation actually is.

Only homosexual transsexuals develop gender dysphoria in early childhood. And yet, they are still socialised male, because socialisation - a type of psychological conditioning - is imposed on us on the basis of our sex.

The median age at which non-homosexual transsexuals transition is mid-40s to mid-50s. They are typically hyper-masculine and embrace their socialisation, which is why they hide their transvestism for decades.

So neither type is socialised female.

Apparently long term it's better for women to have their sex spaces removed if that's what the majority want
Fuck those that don't want it (including me)

Poll after poll has shown that the vast majority of women don't want it. And the longer this debate goes on, the more women learn about what is at the stake, and the more women say no to male inclusion in female-only provisions in these polls.

But the removal of all protections on the basis of sex from all laws, policies and practice worldwide is indeed the publicly declared goal of this movement. (cf. Principle 31, Yogyakarta Principles plus Ten)

^what is at stake