The same as racism? Help me out please.

[talkingdeadscot]

So, after yet another discussion last night, my DH said that my insistence that I would not allow a TW to perform an intimate examination at the doctors on me as akin to racism. I don't think it is but I can't articulate why. Why is my refusal to accept TWAW as discriminatory as racism? He says it's because I'm denying a minority exists and has rights. I said I'd also refuse a man but apparently TWAW so that's not the same even if I personally refuse to accept that TWAW (which I do)

Help!

You're not denying that this minority exists and has rights. You're saying that women have rights to dignity in medical care, and the right to ask to be treated by a member of their own sex. You don't have to believe in what they or your DH believes. He's a misogynist.

He's a dick. How on earth is that denying a minority exists? In what possible way is that denying they exist? No one has a right to examine you intimately, whatever sex or race they are.

Sorry, what they or your DH believe need more coffee!

He thinks it's a gotcha because he personally thinks TWAW. They aren't, because woman simply means "adult human female" no more, no less.

What sort of man tells his wife she must agree to feel humiliated during a medical examination?

I've never heard of a Black person claim to be white to play on an all white cricket team. They aren't any white-only cricket teams as if there were that would be discrimination, the point is they don't claim or pretend to be anything other than what they are. They just want to same chances as everyone else and not to be rejected or punished for something in changeable and obvious as skin colour. Your DH might be a bit like mine and he falls into the Be Kind camp that actually isn't very kind to women.

The Rachel Dolezal example and that bloke who wanted to change his birth certificate because he didn't feel 60 odd are good examples to hit back with. Why is that not ok or maybe it is for him.

I'm afraid your DH sees the rights of a trans medical professional to trump your rights of single sex exemptions and yes he thinks TWAW.

It's a big shock for you I imagine, as it was for me (though we had a different type of argument) that your a loved one so very close to you takes this position and it effectively calling you a bigot for wanting privacy, dignity and respect. It's very challenging to be faced with this as a new reality in your marriage.

Maybe try the forensic medical Bill in Scotland as ask if rape victims are bigots for asking for female only examiners? For me there is a line somewhere you just have to find it. It does make you question your entire relationship though. It did for me.

I would just tell him to fuck off, YOU and only YOU gets to decide who intimately examines you, regardless of anything!

Ask him in what way transwomen are the same sex as you? It is sex that is the basis of the single sex exemptions in the Equality Act 2010. What does he think that means? Does he believe that a penis can be female?

So does your DH accept that you have the right not to be examined by a man? In which case it's not the same as racism. No-one (who is anti-racist) says "It's legitimate to refuse to be examined by someone who is Race A, but racist to be refuse to be examined by someone who is Race B."

What you're arguing is that your legitimate reasons for not wanting to be examined by a man also apply to transwomen. That you can debate, but it's not the same as racism at all.

I dont think any women should have to allowany medical professionals to touch. I dont care the reason. If a woman feels uncomfortable thats it end of.

Tell him race has nothing to do with it. If you were racist then you might object to having a intimate examination by a woman of another race. You wouldn't.

Yes, not wanting to be examined in an intimate way by a man is sexist, in that it makes a discrimination on the basis of sex. But that right to the dignity of one's sex in certain situations and contextx is currently enshrined in law.

I would ask him if he would get a blood transfusion from a trans man who had been pregnant (say Freddie McConnell) which comes with a 13% increase chance of his own death.

A family member said i was in the same bracket as a racist because i wouldnt let men who say they are women into women only spaces and truly feels ill look back on this in so many years time unable to believe what I said now. I doubt it.

Imagine you are black and you requested a black counsellor because your experiences growing up black and in britain was a big part of why you are coming for therapy. They say they've matched you with a black counsellor, you walk in and it's a white person in a tan with hair dyed and in dreads claiming to be black like Rachel Dolezal.

Would that make the service user discriminatory if they asked for another counsellor?

That's the situation here.

Would DH date someone that identified as TW if you broke up? Someone still with a beard?

Why should anyone have the "right" to perform intimate procedures on you? Care should be patient centred.

Regardless, single sex spaces and provisions are set up to safeguard against structural & physical inequalities between males and females, to the benefit of females because males are the oppressing class.

Racism, (or apartheid as TRAs like to bring that up too) exists to reinforce structural inequalities between black people and white people, to the benefit of white people.

In the racism analogy, it is not difficult to see that males (inc transwomen) are the white people, and females (inc transmen) are the black people.

That TRAs keep bringing race in to support their argument is racist and smacks of colonialism. Why should black people's struggle be used to support an ideology that ultimately hurts black women most of all (think of USA where black women are most likely to be incarcerated alongside males and lose sports scholarships to males).

That TRAs fail to see how back to front & illogical their argument is just shows how a fervent belief in something demonstrably untrue leads to a complete denial of reality.

NB mods & monitors - by TRA I don't mean "trans person". In my experience TRAs are most often not actually trans.

Also LTB

What sort of man tells his wife she must agree to feel humiliated during a medical examination?

////

This.

To come at it from a slightly different angle...

My (white) MIL lived in South Africa under apartheid before moving here. As a consequence, my husband went over there quite a lot when he was younger to visit family.

He can confirm that lots of facilities were segregated by race, but also within this segregated system, there were separate toilet facilities for each sex. The apartheid government evidently didn't give a shit about non-whites in many respects, yet apparently still recognised that it was a good idea to keep this separation between men and women's facilities. As far as I'm aware, this was also the case in the Southern States of the USA, the other obvious example of an inherently racist, segregated society.

I have not been to a country segregated by race,
but have travelled widely around 6 continents of the world. In every country I have visited, no matter the culture, predominant religion, or how "racist" or "feminist" the country was, toilet facilities have been split into two sexes.

Your husband might want to have a little think about why that is.

@talkingdeadscot I would turn the argument on its head. Do you have a problem being treated by a woman of any culture other than the one you originate in? If the answer is no, then it is not the same as racism.

If bringing up these excellent points of argument doesn't go well OP, you could always identify as being divorced

No male has the right to intimately touch your body without your consent. Claiming that your bodily autonomy and dignity is somehow against the human rights of males and should therefore be ignored is hatred beyond belief imo. The attempt to co-opt the struggle against racism into this is highly racist. About half of the victims of racism are women after all. How can racism, which includes widespread murder, rape and beatings, possibly be compared a male not being allowed to put their fingers in the vagina of an non-consenting woman?

No one is denying TW the right to perform intimate procedures, what they do not have the right to do is perform intimate procedures on women If they do not consent to it.

How this becomes you denying TW the right to exist is frankly batshit and I wouldn’t bother discussing the issue with someone so determined to be obtuse

Does he think TWAW in all circumstances or does he understand why ppl seeking surrogates (I don’t approve of surrogacy btw) never approach TW?

Can I just ask, in this very hypothetical situation (I assume) how on earth would you even know? If someone presents as a woman are you going to ask for their original birth certificate? Blood results?