The same as racism? Help me out please.

[talkingdeadscot]

So, after yet another discussion last night, my DH said that my insistence that I would not allow a TW to perform an intimate examination at the doctors on me as akin to racism. I don't think it is but I can't articulate why. Why is my refusal to accept TWAW as discriminatory as racism? He says it's because I'm denying a minority exists and has rights. I said I'd also refuse a man but apparently TWAW so that's not the same even if I personally refuse to accept that TWAW (which I do)

Help!

We know that sexuality exists on a spectrum, why not sex and gender too?

Technically sexuality isn't a spectrum - it's a weighting of two inputs - attraction to males and attraction to females.

And there are only two sexes.

We don't know what gender is, so it's hard to say anything about it. Need to have something to measure first.

The question is nonsensical. You may as well ask "we know that the sky is blue, why not snow and grass too?". Because they're not.

I hate your self righteousness and closed mindedness.

Can you really not see the irony here? Your own self righteousness and your own closed mindedness that some female people have different feelings and needs?

Anyone has the right to individually request a different HCP etc

Nearly lost in law mere weeks ago, female people are having to constantly fight for this right against accusations like yours that to have needs and feelings that mean they need a same sex hcp is evil and unacceptable regardless of their reasons.

Hypothetically doing so on this basis, regardless of the individual is crap.

No. Some female people will need female only hcps. Sex, not gender, nothing to do with how lovely an individual may be. There are reasons. Female people matter too.

Aaah more anger at women when they say no.

Not had that one befire

Rest assured, Perfect, I hate your misogynistic, homophobic, utterly regressive and patriarchy-enabling views every bit as much as you hate mine, with interest.

Tis you who’s absolutely frothing with self righteousness and closed mindedness in my eyes.

Sex does not exist on a spectrum, that’s a scientific fact. There are only two forms of gametes, therefore two sexes. Only two. It’s interphobic to appropriate the conditions of people born with DSDs to try and prove some anti-science male supremacist quackery: they are all either male or female human beings who have a DSD, not a “third sex”.

Gender OTOH is a social construct, which varies according to time and space. Most of the so called gender identities (72? 100?) are so nebulous and vague as to be meaningless. Spectrum, schmectrum.

Your arguments are nonsense, and will not wash in this thankfully rational, woman-friendly environment.

You're wrong Perfect. IRL very few women expecting a female to be doing their smear test would have a neutral reaction when someone who presents like Alex Drummond gets the speculum out, even if they daren't admit it. It's not transphobic not to want a male carrying it out any more than it's sexist.

@Perfect28

I really hate the views in this thread, I hate your self righteousness and closed mindedness. Most of all though I hate the person who calls spectrums a nonsense. We know that sexuality exists on a spectrum, why not sex and gender too? You don't get to decide how I feel about myself. I'm glad that the views that most of you share are shamed in places other than mumsnet. OP I'm glad your daughter is more open minded than yourself.

Anyone has the right to individually request a different HCP etc, so do what you want in practice. Hypothetically doing so on this basis, regardless of the individual is crap. As crap as saying you wouldn't want a lesbian to do it in case she got turned on.

That’s a lot of “hate” directed at women who want boundaries over who gets to access their bodies. And, no, sex is not a spectrum. To say that is motivated ignorance.

As for:

As crap as saying you wouldn't want a lesbian to do it in case she got turned on.

that is pure homophobia. Lesbians are not like males or a threat to women in the way that males are. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I don't care if someone is transgender, I don't care about pronouns and I don't specifically care about being examined by a male doctor THEY ALWAYS HAVE CHAPERONES. What I do care about is a male person telling me a lie and then expecting that I will trust them to touch me intimately. There's a basic deceit there that I'm not willing to collude in

Yes, I've had 4 children, had cancer twice and now have heart failure. How is that relevant to what my OP said? I'm in no way 'prissy' and if I was then I have a right to be.

I'm astounded at some of the stuff he's come out with as it tells me I don't know him as well as I thought I did and he certainly doesn't know me.

Just now there's been more heated discussion. Yes, biological sex is real so that's something. BUT, gender seems to trump. He says that TW fight is the same as women's struggles but didn't have much to say about the practicalities of that. Apparently, in some parallel world taking single sex spaces and making all spaces mixed will make women safer in the long run. No answer about how that will help in the short term. I asked how, if the majority of women voted to make single sex spaces mixed, how would the women who didn't want them manage. Suck it up basically, if it's what the majority want.

Jesus, I really feel like he's taking the piss now! I've given examples of how that wouldn't work, why single sex spaces exist and those reasons haven't gone away, reports of women/children being assaulted in mixed toilets etc but still no movement.

He's not stupid, he has a Phd in history, he does a lot of political stuff. I really think it's a case of he's male, middle class, white and he knows what's best. Pffft

Hating women who say “no”

That’s not as progressive as you think it is @Perfect28

poor perfect, she has to say yes to made-up spectrums and men defining womanhood, and exploiting women's spaces and sports, no matter how destructive this is to most women, because otherwise she will have to start questioning her own precariously constructed identity- and we cant have that.

Hypothetically doing so on this basis, regardless of the individual is crap. As crap as saying you wouldn't want a lesbian to do it in case she got turned on.

This is so way off the mark it is untrue. Samantha who used to be Samuel and has got employment in a position that involves intimate examination of a woman whilst expecting everyone to believe they are a woman, knowing that it makes some women feel uncomfortable is not someone who should be in that position, and yes I would question their motives.

The gynecologist, who is clearly a male, and does not tell you otherwise is a completely different kettle of fish.

In the latter I can ask for an alternative consultant and it will happen, the former I would be told I was transphobic, of course it is a woman and to put up and shut up.

If people fail to see the subtle (glaring?) difference, then they need to look at why.

Anyone has the right to individually request a different HCP etc, so do what you want in practice. Hypothetically doing so on this basis, regardless of the individual is crap. As crap as saying you wouldn't want a lesbian to do it in case she got turned on.

It's not remotely the same thing, lesbians are women.

You don't get to decide how I feel about myself. I'm glad that the views that most of you share are shamed in places other than mumsnet. OP I'm glad your daughter is more open minded than yourself

And likewise you don't get to decide where women's boundaries should be. No, means exactly that. No.

Christ not all men are threats you know.

I'm going to leave you all to your hate filled circle jerk, enjoy!

@Whatwouldscullydo

Aaah more anger at women when they say no.

Not had that one befire

And apparently pleased that our concerns are stifled on other forums and platforms.

Yes, shush you women.

And likewise you don't get to decide where women's boundaries should be. No, means exactly that. No

Notice how it's always taken so personally. Certain rules apply to everyone or specific sexs or ages or whatever.

But this, always taken as sone kind of personal attack. Honestly why do some people have tickets on them selves and think everyone exists to make them feel better. That's That's family/friends/partners job. Not ours.

Circle jerk? Telling use of language there Perfect.

invoking NAMALT definitely changes my mind 🤦🏻‍♀️

Christ not all men are threats you know.

If you'd read the thread properly you would know that no one here is saying this and this is a very unhelpful and poor understanding of what women are trying to explain.

I'm going to leave you all to your hate filled circle jerk, enjoy!

Oh don't be so childish. I don't 'hate' anyone, I'm not five. Female people have needs and rights too. It is possible to find ways to meet everyone's needs without winners and losers and a lot of silly name calling.

Christ not all men are threats you know.

Yes, of course we know NAMALT. But we don't know who is and who isn't.

Christ not all men are threats you know.

no more safeguarding, perfect and ops dh have spoken.

all men must have unfettered access to women's bodies, rights and protections. - if they want to, that is.

Christ not all men are threats you know.

Not all males are sexual offenders, but as above given that over 98% of people prosecuted for sexual offences are male, we can say that sexual offenders are almost all male.

@Doyoumind

Circle jerk? Telling use of language there Perfect.

Isn’t it just.

OP you can see the dichotomy can't you?

Women trying to explain what they need - reasoned explanations, details, empathy to both sides, equal values for all.

Those in favour of this anti-woman, misogynist approach - instant tantrums, drama and nastiness.

Says it all.

I wish I had a £ for every plop, scold and run.

Those in favour of this anti-woman, misogynist approach - instant tantrums, drama and nastiness.

Don’t forget the “lesbians are like men” blatant homophobia.