Transmisogyny in women’s shelters.

[Whatdoyoudowhendemocracyfails]

A year-long investigation has concluded a “cohort of powerful feminists” is deliberately freezing out transwomen from accessing services for domestic violence victims.

Didn’t realise we had so much power

gal-dem.com/transphobia-sexual-violence-sound-like-a-man-hang-up-vawg-investigation/

Stonewall have so much money that they don't know how to spend it. So Stonewall come on and make some shelter's for trans people.

God, yes! Their £5million staff bill could fund several shelters. Do it!

There needs to be an independent womens' advocacy group set up that can conduct surveys of service users and potential service users to solicit their views on whether services should be mixed sex or not.

The survey would need to be fully anonymous, all individualised data would be kept private and it would need to be made clear that the service providers are in no way involved and would not have access to individual's answers to the survey.

At the moment all we have is service providers (who may be dependent on "inclusivity" funding or otherwise ideologically motivated) speaking for women without actually hearing anything from the women who need the services.

As we've heard on this thread there are women who are too scared to object to mixed sex provision, given the powerless, dependent situation they are in when seeking help from a refuge. It shouldn't be for staff to dictate what these women need, we need to hear from the women what works for them.

Nothing you said right there has any relevance to this discussion jj1968.

The question isn't:
"Do male people deserve male refuges?" Because everyone agrees they do.

The question I asked is why you believe a male person would want to be in a refuge with the opposite (female) sex.

Why is a refuge containing female victims safer than a refuge containing male victims?

Either they're both equally safe, in which case good, we agree that male people go to male refuges.
Or male refuges are not as safe, in which case male people should discuss why this is so, and how to make male refuges safer.

Which is it? From what you say, it appears you would be in favour of male people only going into male refuges, so long as they are safe. And I would agree.

jj1968

They will have to either find a male shelter, which matches their natal sex or someone will have to fund shelters for transgender people.
If you cannot imagine why natal females need safe spaces of their own, then you lack empathy.
It is not up to women to compromise their safety in order to accomodate male bodied people, not in refuges, shelters, prisons or sport.
Irrespective of how they identify/feel, male bodied people have no place in female safe spaces.
It really is that simple.

There needs to be an independent womens' advocacy group set up that can conduct surveys of service users and potential service users to solicit their views on whether services should be mixed sex or not.

There does. The current "women's" groups with power in this, such as Engender in Scotland, aren't taking women's voices into account.

@andyoldlabour

jj1968

They will have to either find a male shelter, which matches their natal sex or someone will have to fund shelters for transgender people.
If you cannot imagine why natal females need safe spaces of their own, then you lack empathy.
It is not up to women to compromise their safety in order to accomodate male bodied people, not in refuges, shelters, prisons or sport.
Irrespective of how they identify/feel, male bodied people have no place in female safe spaces.
It really is that simple.

Male shelters don't admit trans women.

Male shelters don't admit trans women

In your experience do women's shelters admit transmen? If not, where do transmen go? Will they be admitted to a male shelter?

It seems perfectly clear to me, and also the most sensible solution, to campaign for and set up specialist trans shelters.

Male shelters don't admit trans women.

They should though, shouldn't they?

It seems perfectly clear to me, and also the most sensible solution, to campaign for and set up specialist trans shelters.

There you are, JJ, a really constructive campaign for you to get behind!

Male shelters don't admit trans women.

If that were true (evidence?) they'd be breaking the law.

Perhaps lobby the sex based providers to actually abide by the law, if you believe that to be true.

Rather than lobbying the opposite sex to cease applying the law.

"Male shelters don't admit trans women."

Then it is high time that the very rich trangender lobby stumped up some cash and built them shelters. Male bodied people do not belong in a female space.

@ArabellaScott

Stonewall have so much money that they don't know how to spend it. So Stonewall come on and make some shelter's for trans people.

God, yes! Their £5million staff bill could fund several shelters. Do it!

Where would the staff come from? Do you think they should just scrap the helpline or sack all the people working on anti-bullying initiatives to take the organisation is a radically different direction? Stonewall have no experience in this kind of service delivery and it is highly specialised work.

And that £5 million is largely grant funded to campaign for LGBT rights, or is generated through things like the corporate diversity scheme. If they scrap the diversity scheme and sack all the workers then there's no more revenue coming in. If they set up a trans refuge with the money intended to be spent elsewhere then the funding would stop. They could even face legal action depending on the nature of the funding. It's not like charities have a huge pot of money they can do with as they please, the vast amount of charitable funding is conditional and output based. And no trust or government funding stream which supports survivors is going to give huge amounts of money to an organisation with no experience of service delivery. It's really not as simple as Stonewall are loaded why can't they set up a trans refuge.

Male shelters don't admit trans women.

Then start a campaign! Either for male shelters to be inclusive of all males, or for there to be separate shelters for transwomen. I really don't see why female shelters admitting males are the answer.

For a shelter to be male-only, they'd have to apply the same EA clause as women, which is sex-based not gender based. This is lawful discrimination. As 'transwomen' are the same sex as men*, (male) a male-only service would be breaking the law by allowing some men in and excluding others. This is unlawful discrimination.

*men: a male person of any age (as per EA2010)

JJ why don't you start crowdfunding? With all the outspoken activists surely you would raise the money in no time.

Great idea, purple. Why not, jj, it sounds like a great idea.

Male shelters don't admit trans women

If that is true, that's outrageous and genuinely transphobic. Especially given the extremely broad nature of the trans umbrella as currently promoted by Stonewall etc. Or do you mean they don't admit post operative transexuals? But I can't imagine any shelter asking whether pre or post op, as has already been pointed out. Transwomen who've had genital surgery are also a very tiny group although obviously just as deserving of protection.

Stonewall have the money and the power and the ear of media and government. They could sort this out if they had the inclination.

Where would the staff come from? Do you think they should just scrap the helpline or sack all the people working on anti-bullying initiatives to take the organisation is a radically different direction? Stonewall have no experience in this kind of service delivery and it is highly specialised work.

Once upon a time there were no female shelters at all. Guess what - women campaigned and raised money and trained. You can do that.

Stonewall didn't have any experience of trans issues 20 years ago but they have now. Organisations can grow, develop, fundraise, campaign, arrange training. (And it's hardly taking them in a radical direction!)

I'm afraid I think you're mistaken, jj1968.

I think male refuges actually DO accept men* who identify as female. Perhaps check again?

*Men: male of any age as per EA2010

If that were true (evidence?) they'd be breaking the law.

Exactly. They would literally be discriminating on the grounds of gender reassignment. That's the kind of thing it means.

@Barracker

For a shelter to be male-only, they'd have to apply the same EA clause as women, which is sex-based not gender based. This is lawful discrimination. As 'transwomen' are the same sex as men*, (male) a male-only service would be breaking the law by allowing some men in and excluding others. This is unlawful discrimination.

*men: a male person of any age (as per EA2010)

They would argue it was a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim - in this case safeguarding - which is the same basis they would argue that they don't accept any other women.

Also though, do you really think a trans woman, who has been traumatised by male violence, is likely to flee to an all male environment? Is that really an acceptable solution?

Male shelters don't admit trans women. -- This is unlawful discrimination.

Absolutely - it's blatant discrimination on the grounds of gender reassignment. You cannot discriminate against someone because they've undergone gender reassignment.

So therefore, jj1968, I don''t believe you, at least as far as the UK is concerned.

In other more primitive countries like the US, who knows what sort of discrimination is permitted? If they adopted something similar to our EA2010, then transwomen would absolutely have to be admitted to male-only shelters.

If that is true, that's outrageous and genuinely transphobic.

It is. If someone starts a crowd funder to take any male shelter who discriminates against MTF trans people in this way to court, I'll definitely donate. How about it jj?

Where I live there are multiple refuges that serve the needs of different communities of women. If a specific community cannot access the precise service they need, then they tend to set one up.

They would argue it was a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim

And what would the legitimate aim be? How are men helped by excluding transwomen from their spaces?

Are you saying men need to be protected from transwomen? Do you think that would stand up in court?