Transmisogyny in women’s shelters.

[Whatdoyoudowhendemocracyfails]

A year-long investigation has concluded a “cohort of powerful feminists” is deliberately freezing out transwomen from accessing services for domestic violence victims.

Didn’t realise we had so much power

gal-dem.com/transphobia-sexual-violence-sound-like-a-man-hang-up-vawg-investigation/

They would argue it was a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim - in this case safeguarding - which is the same basis they would argue that they don't accept any other women.

They wouldn't be able to argue that any more than I can argue I don't want a manly looking woman in a female space.

I think it would be brilliant if JJ started fundraising.

I know it's a big amount, but I'm sure if JJ devoted even a tiny fraction of the time and energy to that worthy cause that they currently devote to posting on MN, they'd raise a substantial sum of money.

I mean, women's shelters and refuges didn't come out of nowhere.

They were fund-raised for by grass roots activists, started and run on a shoe-string. Still are in many cases. Specially if they're cut off from state aid in Scotland by not being "trans-inclusive" (i.e. appropriately female only).

So therefore, jj1968, I don''t believe you, at least as far as the UK is concerned.

Nor do I. If I'm wrong, set up that crowdfund, it's slam dunk illegal discrimination.

Any argument for trans women being allowed in womens shelter extends to gay men. Could extend to bisexual men. Could probably extend to men who have ever had a negative sexual or abusive encounter with another man (anyone who was abused by another man as a child). You could probably find a rational to extend to most men who would be seeking refuge.

It's just a ridiculous argument. It's ridiculous we even have to talk about it.

@titchy

Where would the staff come from? Do you think they should just scrap the helpline or sack all the people working on anti-bullying initiatives to take the organisation is a radically different direction? Stonewall have no experience in this kind of service delivery and it is highly specialised work.

Once upon a time there were no female shelters at all. Guess what - women campaigned and raised money and trained. You can do that.

Stonewall didn't have any experience of trans issues 20 years ago but they have now. Organisations can grow, develop, fundraise, campaign, arrange training. (And it's hardly taking them in a radical direction!)

A whole host of housing providers were established in the 60/70s alongside the refuge sector. Centrepoint were given a space in central London by a church to set up the first homeless hostel for young people. Do you know how much space in central London is worth now? No-one's giving it away anymore. Some of the early refuge's were set up in squats. Squatting is illegal now in most cases. The world is a different place from 40/50 years ago which is why almost no new housing or homelessness organisation or even housing co-ops have emerged in the last couple of decades.

which is the same basis they would argue that they don't accept any other women.

They wouldn't be accepting any women. That's the key difference.

I could not afford what you have so I will take it

Isn't that called stealing ?

The money is there when the will is there

I'm really disappointed that a person as seemingly energetic as you, with time on your hands (as evidenced by the prolific number of posts you make on a feminist forum when clearly not a feminist yourself) doesn't have a more can-do attitude.

Really disappointed.

You've let us down, you've let those people you could be fund-raising for down, but most of all, you've let yourself down...

So because it's quicker and easier to just use women's existing ones, (set up by women for women, and it wasn't a breeze, the first ones were in people's homes ffs with nothing but grassroots fundraising) that excuses the harm to female only provision and females needing single sex refuge?

Male people need to stop being so ruddy lazy. And this misses the point. Since if female people go fine, right, you have the women's ones and we'll set up female only ones from scratch ourselves for the females excluded by this mixed sex policy - would there be any grassroots support and help to do this from transwomen?

Or would those women be treated like the one single holding out female only refuge in Canada?

I will add to that: any group setting up a new refuge for TW from scratch will have my full support, I'll dig for that and so will many women here. I'll write letters, I'll help campaign, that would be a bloody good cause.

@midgedude

I could not afford what you have so I will take it

Isn't that called stealing ?

The money is there when the will is there

The money isn't there - just ask the VAWG sector which has been on its knees for a decade due to a desperate shortage of funding. Did you miss austerity and the carnage it caused in the voluntary sector and to marginalised and vulnerable groups?

The choice, as things are, is that the refuge sector finds a way to mange trans inclusion or trans women fleeing domestic abuse have no support and nowhere to go. That is the reality of the situation. Everyone in both the VAWG sector and the homelessness sector knows it. You can't just wave your hands and go the money and trained staff will magically appear if you just try hard enough. On the ground things are not that simple and many refuges/homelessness services are clinging on for dear life as it is.

I'd definitely support separate refuge provision for transwomen. I imagine they have need of it. Happy to donate &/or to be a vocal ally .

Male people need to stop being so ruddy lazy. And this misses the point. Since if female people go fine, right, you have the women's ones and we'll set up female only ones from scratch ourselves for the females excluded by this mixed sex policy - would there be any grassroots support and help to do this from transwomen?

Or would those women be treated like the one single holding out female only refuge in Canada?

I think we all know the answer.

Also though, do you really think a trans woman, who has been traumatised by male violence, is likely to flee to an all male environment? Is that really an acceptable solution?

Whose violence are the other male humans in that shelter fleeing? Given that males commit the vast majority of sexual and violent crime, I highly doubt many are fleeing women.

Yes it's a difficult bind if you are a male bodied person, attracted to male bodied people and yet also in need of shelter from violence. I imagine service providers of male refuges navigate some really difficult issues.

The answer is not to put already traumatised female people at risk. Especially when females are already more vulnerable due to risk of pregnancy and being physically weaker.

Raise the money

It's what other people do

The refuges today rely on fund raising

I'm not reading the report because it will make me too angry, but I can guess who it is being implied are the perpetrators of domestic abuse in these cases- trans widows like me who refused to accept their husband's gender identity.

Women like the women on the 4 trans widows threads on this board, and women like these:

www.transwidowsvoices.org/our-voices

Have a read of our stories.

Read this series of articles by Dr Em

uncommongroundmedia.com/domestic-abuse-related-to-late-transitioning-partners-part-i-coercive-control/

And then decide how likely it is that women like us are abuse perpetrators and that our husbands need to flee from us and be protected.

Hang on . You say that is not ok for a transwoman to go to an all male environment because... males...

Yet you think it's ok for women to go to a unisex environment because , well there are males but it's only women and they don't matter to you

@MichelleofzeResistance

I will add to that: any group setting up a new refuge for TW from scratch will have my full support, I'll dig for that and so will many women here. I'll write letters, I'll help campaign, that would be a bloody good cause.

Here you go, this refuge is based in a converted tour bus, I'm sure they will appreciate your donation to help them try and establish something more suitable, like a building for example. How much will you be sending?

lgbtiqoutside.org/refuge

So you have a refuge? You just don't like it?

Female only services like Karen Ingala Smith's Nia provide for males outside of the refuge environment itself.

twitter.com/k_ingalasmith/status/1356248126655442948?s=21

They would argue it was a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim

No they wouldn't.
That is the allowable justification for invoking the same sex clause in the first place.
It can't be both applied "we are a male only institution which lawfully can exclude the female sex" AND "We will exclude these members of the male sex because they have the PC gender reassignment'. The proportional and legitimate clause allows to legally exclude an entire SEX. It doesn't allow legal exclusion of some members of that sex whilst entitling others.

Hopefully this is reassuring to you. If an institution exists as a single sex exemption, they can NOT exclude members of that sex for having a PC like gender reassignment.

Like I say, you are mistaken.

As to a male person not WANTING to be housed with their own sex, that is a different matter. They are ENTITLED to be. What they are not entitled to is to breach the single sex exemption status of a service for the female sex.

Both sexes have an entitlement to same sex services, or mixed sex services. But they do not have an entitlement to the enforced presence of the opposite sex.

Karen, last seen educating the lamentable WESC about women's need for women only spaces, as part of an evidence session, alongside a MTF trans person working in a women's refuge who on the train there complained on social media that they were not able to view adult sites on the free WiFi.

Thanks for that link, I'll be looking into it. There is some brilliant work currently going on with a group using busses as overnight homeless shelters and care centres, it's an excellent idea.

The world is a different place from 40/50 years ago which is why almost no new housing or homelessness organisation or even housing co-ops have emerged in the last couple of decades

Liverpool must be ahead of the curve because there have been a number here. You will most likely need some funding support from groups such as Stonewall. But once the need has been identified then it makes it possible for all concerned parties to move together towards the goal.

There are some refuges that accept transwomen. No one is arguing that there shouldn’t be.

What you and the article is arguing is that there should be no refuges or abuse services that provide women with a single sex space. There is space to meet both sets of needs but not everyone is the same and some people need different things.

The biggest barrier to getting a refuge place is having no recourse to public funds. This is an issue that affects migrant women but someone decided to write an article trashing the only organisations that help them rather than doing an exposure of the way these women are treated by our government.