Transmisogyny in women’s shelters.

[Whatdoyoudowhendemocracyfails]

A year-long investigation has concluded a “cohort of powerful feminists” is deliberately freezing out transwomen from accessing services for domestic violence victims.

Didn’t realise we had so much power

gal-dem.com/transphobia-sexual-violence-sound-like-a-man-hang-up-vawg-investigation/

Why does the fact that you don't mind sharing with some men, mean that noone should ever be able to have a single sex space? What's difficult about saying that sometimes we need single sex spaces?

@AllCatsAreBeautiful

I think what this investigation shows is shocking and sad. I work in a frontline women’s organisation tackling violence against women and I’m happy that the organisation I work for is fully inclusive of trans women.

I do wonder what the women who are fleeing violent men feel about having a biological male in the women’s refuge, notwithstanding that the biological male may identify as female. Of course there should be somewhere for everyone who is fleeing violence to go for a place of safety, I’m just not sure a mixed refuges are the way forward.

@SirenSays

You're saying women with trauma are better at knowing someone else's gender than the person themselves, no I've never come across that line of thinking before?

No. I, at least, am saying that women who have been traumatised by male violence have every right to say no to the presence of a male in a single sex safe female space.

Your interpretation is at odds with what is being said here! Mainly because you are referrring to gender.. whilst we are stating sex! Thre is a lot of difference.

Like everyone else in the world I can't tell the gender of any individual. The individual has to tell me, if they choose to do so. However many genders you believe in there are too many for me to memorise and even if I did I couldn't tell just by looking!

I can't understand why on earth a trans woman would seek shelter in a women's refuge. Same as going in women's changing rooms and loos. These are places where there's a likelihood of encountering a radfem or GC woman. They are so horribly dangerous, these women of literal violence, that it must be dangerous, no? Why would they want to take that risk?

Because they are terrified for their lives due to a very likely male partner and have nowhere else to go? You think anyone moves hundreds of miles away to a secret address for jollies?

@SirenSays

You're saying women with trauma are better at knowing someone else's gender than the person themselves, no I've never come across that line of thinking before?

Lol. Like women haven't had tens of thousands of years of evolution which has resulted in us being able to tell, with incredible accuracy, whether someone is male! Regardless of how they identify.

there's usually a visual difference between men and transwomen

Do you mean clothes? I hope not, that would be very naive.

"there's usually a visual difference between men and transwomen "

Siren, you still seem confused. We are talking about women's refuges being for women.

Are you saying that to use a women's refuge you need to have a visual difference from a man? Are you talking about lipstick and a dress? Can a woman in trainers with short hair and no make up still use it? Can a goth man with long hair and eyeliner use it?

What makes you decide a transwoman- a man who says he is a woman- is no threat, and women won't mind him being in their single sex refuge.

I can't understand your logic.

So transwomen need a haven. That is true

And actually a number of men , especially gay men, may need such a haven

Would you be happy with a haven that was open and available to all those and transwomen as a solution ?just distinct from the one for women ?

Because they are terrified for their lives due to a very likely male partner and have nowhere else to go? You think anyone moves hundreds of miles away to a secret address for jollies

And again, what about the women already in residence?

Transwomen could do as women did many years ago. As gay men did! Or they could seek out male shelters, mixed safe spaces. But, if told no, what they cannot do is insist!

We need to stop fixating on forcing changes on single sex refuges. We need to concentrate on making available enough safe spaces for everyone who needs them.

Why would they be safer in with the opposite sex, jj1968?

Are you saying the female sex are less dangerous than the male sex?

.. It's not my job to start inspecting people's genitals..

The adorable conviction of some that that's the only way you'd be able to tell.

You're saying women with trauma are better at knowing someone else's gender than the person themselves, no I've never come across that line of thinking before?

Not gender, sex. We know it, and they know it. No-one is confused, no-one needs to guess.

Stonewall is away with cash and I'm sure could set up shelters for transwomen fleeing domestic violence. Or transwomen could organise and fundraisers like women did.

The lack of refuge space for transwomen is not women's problem to solve.

If you are admitted to a domestic abuse service they asked you have the same gender as you were assigned at birth and use that information to make sure you are in the right service. They do not at any point inspect anyone’s genitalia (that would obviously be massively inappropriate in a service for abuse victims).

There are some single sex services and some groups than can be mixed sex. Some abuse services are funded to provide services for anyone regardless of sex and gender but still have single sex spaces. Everyone in my group is female because the majority of people who need the service are women and very vulnerable women.

I have been raped and sexually assaulted. I had counselling and support through a women's only services about 10 years ago. I still have trauma and fears. I become panicked if a man or men get into a lift with me if there are no other women. I will get out. I do not like it when men sit next to me on trains or buses or if they sit behind me on a bus. I know these are public places so I can't expect men to to be there. It does make me feel anxious though.

If I was accessing a women only space where I felt I could let my guard down a bit and feel safe I would find it incredibly distressing to be confronted with a male whatever gender is claimed.

Cara English is happy to ask the public for money for facial surgery but apparently fund raising for transwomen refuge is not something to consider www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/trans-woman-asking-scots-10000-22628902

And we've all probably seen the videos of women who don't fit today's beauty standards being pulled out of restrooms because they don't look feminine enough and may be trans.

Well, if we’re sharing our experiences and views - I’ve been questioned twice if I’m walking into the right toilets in recent years. It’s an occupational hazard, I’m very tall and don’t bother with performing femininity.

I would very much rather any women who feels unsafe is able to ask me that question and be reassured by my reply than be uncomfortable or in fear because someone who at first glance might be a man is in the same loos as her.

I’ve never been dragged out of a restroom though - I’d like to see evidence of that claim.

Any woman. Damn.

@Barracker

Why would they be safer in with the opposite sex, jj1968?

Are you saying the female sex are less dangerous than the male sex?

I'm not really interested getting into the broader debate when I'll no doubt only be accused of derailing. I only commented to try and dispel the ridiculous myth that trans women who need a refuge are doing it for a laugh, a validation. Going into a refuge is a huge decision which means leaving your home, saying goodbye, temporarily at least, to your family, friends and any support netwrok, leaving your job and going on benefits and moving often hundreds of miles away to somewhere you know no-one to accommodation that is often little more than a tiny single room in an environment where none of the normal things we expect of a home, like being able to have people over, applies. And whilst a refuge will not ask for proof of your abuse, the Jobcentre may well want to see details of police reports etc before granting you benefits to pay the huge rents to stay there - something that is an ongoing struggle btw the VAWG sector and the DWP. No-one does this on a whim and it is an insult to every woman who has had to flee to a refuge to try and claim otherwise.

So because it's a big thing and sign of trauma that a transwoman will seek out a shelter we should not give a damn how the male presence will affect the females ?

No

Get your own space

One that all males can use

I only commented to try and dispel the ridiculous myth that trans women who need a refuge are doing it for a laugh, a validation.

Literally no-one on this thread has said that.

What we have said is that:

(1) Some of the abusive men may use unisex facilities as an opening to pursue their victims into shelters (see comments upthread about already sending female relatives in to check whether their victims are in a particular shelter)

(2) Regardless of how nice and non-threatening an individual penis owner may be, traumatised women need a guaranteed penis-free space in which to heal. This is non-negotiable, and shouldn't even be up for discussion. Penis free spaces don't stop penis-owners campaigning and fund-raising for the spaces they need as victims of male sexual violence.

To which I would add (3) I don't for a minute think transwomen who are victims of male sexual violence are seeking "validation" when they look for resources to help them. Their situation is awful, and I hope people out there are campaigning to help them (but not by taking facilities away from women who need them). I do however think transwomen who push to work in, even manage rape crisis resources, in the knowledge that their male biology may be triggering to a substantial number of the women who need those services, are doing for motives which I find very suspect indeed.

Well, that's fine. And nobody would disgreee... even the women here who have said that they have used refuges, wrk in them etc. But thanks for expaining!

But that still doesn't answer the one question does it?

What about the women using the refuge?

Or the follow ups

Why don't transwomen come together to provide safe spaces for other transwomen in need?

Why would any traumatised individuals insist on further traumatising others? For whatever reason?

Why is removing single female safe spaces, refuges etc being forced through funding nd all sorts of oother legislation?

Who benefits? And why would they even want that 'benefit'?

@NecessaryScene1

We're talking about transwomen presenting as women

You might be, but I'm afraid that's a rather transphobic view - to suggest that "transwomen" have to pass or present in a particular way. If you were to turn away someone for not "presenting as a woman" you'd be crucified by this lot.

Does anyone recall that American "woman's" shelter being rather upset that people were taking issue with the guy taking naked pictures of himself with an erection in their bathroom? They thought that was fine. (Links welcome.)

Whatever you're visualising is not where we currently are at. Because it's impossible to draw a clear line on the continuum from "male presenting as a woman" to "male taking naked erection selfies".

Whereas it is possible to draw a clear line between male and female.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3692730-Person-in-womens-shelter-boasts-about-spirting-erection-shelter-supports-her

I don't think TW who access these services do so for validation, on the flip side what happens to the women who no longer feel safe, or even have to leave because of their own uncontrollable reaction to TW who they possibly view as men. Why again is one group prioritised over another? Why for all of the money and energy going into the trans debate are people not trying to fund services for trans people. Surely they have needs separate from the needs of women?

@prisencolinensinainciusol2

.. It's not my job to start inspecting people's genitals..

The adorable conviction of some that that's the only way you'd be able to tell.

Indeed!

The jaw-droppingly massive sense of entitlement. 'But what about meeeeeee? I neeeeed it!' The misogyny and complete lack of empathy with and for women writ large. We see you.