Transmisogyny in women’s shelters.

[Whatdoyoudowhendemocracyfails]

A year-long investigation has concluded a “cohort of powerful feminists” is deliberately freezing out transwomen from accessing services for domestic violence victims.

Didn’t realise we had so much power

gal-dem.com/transphobia-sexual-violence-sound-like-a-man-hang-up-vawg-investigation/

Moya has her A level results on her linked in profile which I think tells you everything you need to know about her.

I couldn't finish this article. So much hate directed at female survivors of male abuse.

We're talking about transwomen presenting as women

You might be, but I'm afraid that's a rather transphobic view - to suggest that "transwomen" have to pass or present in a particular way. If you were to turn away someone for not "presenting as a woman" you'd be crucified by this lot.

Does anyone recall that American "woman's" shelter being rather upset that people were taking issue with the guy taking naked pictures of himself with an erection in their bathroom? They thought that was fine. (Links welcome.)

Whatever you're visualising is not where we currently are at. Because it's impossible to draw a clear line on the continuum from "male presenting as a woman" to "male taking naked erection selfies".

Whereas it is possible to draw a clear line between male and female.

@SirenSays

I'm confused why people assume I have no trauma. I'm a survivor with severe CPTSD. You don't typically live in these shelters because life is going swimmingly... We aren't talking about men presenting as men in female spaces. We're talking about transwomen presenting as women and I know several transpeople who pass and haven't been clocked. So to me, they'd just be another service user, and that's not really any of my business.

Good for you, but what happens to the other women on this thread who would find it traumatising to share a space with a male-bodied person? Where should they go?

There's very little out there for male victims of domestic abuse or sexual abuse. It's brushed under the rug. I guarantee someone is going to roll out a screed of stats in response to this claiming why men are so rarely the victim, but does that help the men that are? And how many male victims go unnoticed, feeling unable to seek help...that skews stats massively. Men have a shit time of it. They're stuck in a place where it's stigmatised to be the victim.

I'm brushing nothing under a rug just pointing out that when women wanted refuges they set them up, in secret, self funding, hiding and put up with violent men finding them and police shrugging, cos it was just a domestic - IN REFUGES!!!

There is now much more known about the numeber of men suffering DV and national campaigns aimed at them, highlighting that they are not alone, that there is help.

And a government lauded charity called ManKind, information avaialble across government sites, DV sites and all of the places people go to for support, online and in real life.

www.mankind.org.uk/about-us/about-us/

It is great that this has been recognised and a single sex, male organisatin now exists to signpost men to the help available to them. It is open, not hidden, well supported and well funded.

So please, before getting on your high horse, consider the different, equally abhorrent, issues both women and men have experienced and notice the difference in official response... and maybe consider why women STILL have to protect their single sex spaces against male intrusion!

So to me, they'd just be another service user,

And that's nice for you.

Many female people cannot do this. What happens to them?

Isn't the obvious answer that there must be female only refuges for those people who cannot access mixed sex refuges? As in, options for everyone?

We're talking about transwomen presenting as women and I know several transpeople who pass and haven't been clocked. So to me, they'd just be another service user, and that's not really any of my business. Pass? Or women are so used to not being able to voice their dissent. Never being asked and always being expected to accept such incursions is habit forming... there is NOTHING wrong wth women saying no and protecting single sex spaces.

I'm a woman and I've used these shelters and services since I was a teenager. I'm more than happy to share with transgender people.

It's not about people being transgender, it's about them being male. You can't give your consent for other women.

We're talking about transwomen presenting as women and I know several transpeople who pass and haven't been clocked. So to me, they'd just be another service user, and that's not really any of my business.

How does this work?

'You pass as a woman, so you can come in. You have 5 o'clock shadow, are 6ft 2 and that's clearly a wig. Sorry. You can't stay here.'

How do you draw that line?

What's good for me? My trauma..?
I'm not saying you have to be able to pass but there's usually a visual difference between men and transwomen. It's not my job to start inspecting people's genitals to make sure they're the right gender, when the true issue isn't gender, it's abuse.
I have a pretty deep voice, if my shelter had hung up on me because of that I'd likely have died.
And we've all probably seen the videos of women who don't fit today's beauty standards being pulled out of restrooms because they don't look feminine enough and may be trans..

Siren you're avoiding the question that several of us have asked.

This is ok for you. You're fine with it.

What happens to the female people who need refuge and cannot use a mixed sex space?

What happens to females who aren't you?

siren I'm really surprised you, as a trauma survivor especially, don't recognise human sex. Assume we're talking transwomen here (because who ever talks about transmen eh?). It is definitely an unusual trait! I have a family member who is face blind. I imagine it's a similar thing.

As a trauma survivor yourself, you are probably aware of the freeze and appease responses. They are very common in smaller prey animals and in female humans when attacked by male humans. Sadly in our patriarchal society these responses are read as acceptance and consent, when really they are just a desperate, unconscious survival tactic. I'd be careful of letting your own issues with not seeing sex, and your own belief in gender ideology, get in the way of understanding that it is not the same for many of the women you share a shelter with.

Do you support provision for survivors such as myself who, like many, are very able to spot who is male even at a distance, and who need single sex provision because they are re traumatised by the unwanted presence of males?

NB actually you may not be aware of all the trauma responses because it's quite possible you've not had access to any decent trauma therapy. If so, I apologise for my assumption above.

I'm not talking about mixed sexes. If a woman can't use a service because they suspect another user may be trans. I have no idea what happens to them.

Siren all of that is good for you! But is not the lived experience of many other women!

What do they do? Leave?

I am sorry Herja.
I don't understand how people can ignore women like you and say 'it's fine because it doesn't bother me'.

I'm not talking about mixed sexes.

Yes you are. Stop twisting words. MTF trans people are male. They are of the male sex, women are of the female sex,

If a woman can't use a service because they suspect another user may be trans. I have no idea what happens to them. What happens is the same as what happens ins schools if a sub teen girl doesn't want to share changing rooms, showers etc with a transgirl, she is told she is wrong, not nice, and must change elsewhere, often a classroom.

Women and girls are already being told to leave single sex spaces because they don't want to use them in the presence of a man.

So essentially you don't want to address the reality of this being a mixed sex refuge, and you're not interested in female people losing services so long as male people's needs are met.

Can you honestly not see your own gynephobia here?

but there's usually a visual difference between men and transwomen

In what sense?

Is this person a woman? Do they look like a woman?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6894599/amp/When-man-called-Mark-locked-threatening-kill-mother-child.html

You're saying women with trauma are better at knowing someone else's gender than the person themselves, no I've never come across that line of thinking before?

How do you know someone is trans without them telling you, you just guess and then don't use the service?

It's not about "gender". It's about sex. Gender identity is irrelevant.

Female people with trauma responses and fears for people of the male sex do not have their trauma responses moderated by the person's sense of gender.

It's blatantly obvious that most people are the sex they are.

You yourself admitted they "didn't have to pass". Very few do. If they genuinely did, who would know there was a male there?

there's usually a visual difference between men and transwomen

What on earth do you mean, and why would "visual difference" have any relevance to anything?

There's a visual difference between a man in a red shirt and a man in a blue one too. But that has no possible bearing on letting either man into a female only refuge.