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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Humza Yousaf and Scottish Hate Crime Bill

240 replies

Pinkfreesias · 01/02/2021 18:51

Humza Yousaf, the Scottish Justice Secretary, has just tweeted that the recent amendments tabled on the Freedom Of Expression (Hate Crime) Bill will not now be moved on. Hugely disappointing for women speaking out might still be labelled hate criminals here in Scotland. And I can't help wondering if it's somehow linked to Joanna Cherry's sacking.

mobile.twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1356299644553322497

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YouSetTheTone · 04/02/2021 19:52

@MaudTheInvincible
I’m actually quite disturbed at the fact this word is banned. As a word in its own right it’s not offensive. Is it banned only on this board when used with a word that begins with T? I’m quite new on this board so apologies if this is common knowledge.

Apollo440 · 04/02/2021 19:58

Yes I've had a post deleted for suggesting that certain peoples arguments were based on a cult and not logical reasoning.

Justhadathought · 04/02/2021 20:22

Quite a lot of posts seem to have disappeared completely. Ones in which people discussed this bill and tried to work out the intentions regarding the religious freedom of expression sections

Really very odd, and quite disturbing. Very disturbing, in fact.
there was nothing that broke the rules, but maybe it was deemed that the any speculation or discussion was forbidden, in a scary reflection of the bill itself?

Any ideas what has happened?

Justhadathought · 04/02/2021 20:24

Whole hours of posts have just gone.......

MaudTheInvincible · 04/02/2021 20:31

AFAIK it's only posters on this board who can't be seen to say that word. You'd probably be alright on the other boards.

The Feminism board is subject to extra guidelines, pinned to the top of the board (here), and we get watched by persons on twitter who enthusiastically report our posts if we use certain ever changing terms incase we spread dissent and resistance to the accepted orthodoxy.

Justhadathought · 04/02/2021 20:35

Yes, but none of the above, now missing posts used that term. They all relate to discussion of the Religious Freedom of Expression amendment, and to what that might look like in practice?

MaudTheInvincible · 04/02/2021 20:43

Sorry my response was to YouSetTheTone. I imagine the deleted posts contravened on of the moveable feast of terms or topics which are earmarked for reporting at any given time. Maybe email MNHQ and ask them. It's very frustrating, especially when you've invested lots of time etc in posts Thanks

Justhadathought · 04/02/2021 20:53

One of them just gave the wikipedia definition and explanation of the phrase 2 + 2 = 5, for example.

It feels as if it is not even about specific words any longer, but about thought crimes, or what is imagined are thought crimes. So even if a post does not contain forbidden words or phrases, someone will second guess an intention, and then report.

We are actually living through this.......Who'd have thought that such a totalitarian regime would come to pass here, and in our time?

YouSetTheTone · 04/02/2021 20:57

Thanks @MaudTheInvincible and I’m so sorry if my questions triggered any of the removals.
I’m genuinely deeply saddened and disturbed by this censorship. Why is Mumsnet playing a part in this silencing of women and their concerns?
(Ignore it answering this results in posts being removed Sad)

Cailleach1 · 04/02/2021 20:58

I think that when one is prohibited (because of being heavily policed and monitored by external 'operatives') from using the c word, there is a good chance that what it alludes to really is a c word. Those c type orgs cannot let sunlight or analysis be unopposed or the lack of any realistic foundation will be exposed. When you know your particular belief cannot withstand any debate, you have to make sure any credible discussion that you cannot control by hectoring is shut down asap. Also, they police it heavily because they really do operate like c's.

MaudTheInvincible · 04/02/2021 21:04

And so many are denying that it's even happening Sad I despair sometimes, and have to take breaks from engaging, but I'm encouraged that there is a huge growth in grassroots organising by women now. We're fighting back and we won't be silenced 💪

Cailleach1 · 04/02/2021 21:04

I did not write the word itself. I presume the letter C is not hateful (wouldn't be surprised, though). Or, we will ertainly be in a razy situation.

Justhadathought · 04/02/2021 21:14

The thing is, such repression inevitably leads to a stronger resistance.

"The disturbing factor in the success of totalitarianism is … the true selflessness of its adherents: it may be understandable that a Nazi or Bolshevik will not be shaken in his conviction by crimes against people who do not belong to the movement, but the amazing fact is that neither is he likely to waver when the monster begins to devour its own children and not even if he becomes a victim of persecution himself "

Totalitarianism does not have an end goal in the usual political sense. Its only real goal is to perpetuate its own existence. There is no one party line that, if you stick to it, will save you from persecution. Remember the random mass murders. Stalin repeatedly purged whole sections of his government — just because. The fear is a requirement. The fear is what keeps the movement going

And how do they get there? How do they get this power

Arendt argues that there is a “possibility that gigantic lies and monstrous falsehoods can eventually be established as unquestioned facts, that man may be free to change his own past at will, and that the difference between truth and falsehood may cease to be objective and become a mere matter of power and cleverness, of pressure and infinite repetition

This battle with truth is something we see today. Opinions are being given the same weight as facts, leading to endless debates and the assumption that nothing can be known anyway

It is this turning away from knowledge that opens the doors to totalitarianism. “Before mass leaders seize the power to fit reality to their lies, their propaganda is marked by its extreme contempt for facts as such, for in their opinion fact depends entirely on the power of man who can fabricate it

Hannah Arendt : fs.blog/2018/03/hannah-arendt-totalitarianism/

MaudTheInvincible · 04/02/2021 21:14

Grin Cailleach1

MNHQ are walking a very fine line, YouSetTheTone, and have to deal with a lot of external pressure in order to allow these conversations happen here at all. They don't have to and very, very few sites would host us. We might moan but we're grateful they give us this platform. Reddit got rid of all their gender critical groups for example. Women frequently get banned from twitter for defending women's rights. It's a global concern.

MaudTheInvincible · 04/02/2021 21:17

The thing is, such repression inevitably leads to a stronger resistance.

Indeed. It's an unsustainable position long term. Thanks for the Arendt link, I keep seeing her name in conjunction with this issue, but haven't read any before.

YouSetTheTone · 04/02/2021 21:18

I think you’re right @Cailleach1. If a school of thought was legitimate and held up to debate and scrutiny then why would people be afraid of this?

But seriously. Mumsnet. Why aren’t they brave enough to allow discussion? WHY are we even covertly discussing things like biological sex being real? Why is ‘word that rhymes with adult’ a BANNED word? I genuinely thought you meant cnt. Or cck. This is unreal.

MichelleofzeResistance · 04/02/2021 21:18

in their opinion, fact depends entirely on the power of man who can fabricate it

Isn't that the bitter truth.

YouSetTheTone · 04/02/2021 21:20

@MaudTheInvincible thanks for your response. I was too slow typing in the red mists of my anger!
I’m grateful that MN allow this in that context.

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 04/02/2021 21:22

@MaudTheInvincible

Grin Cailleach1

MNHQ are walking a very fine line, YouSetTheTone, and have to deal with a lot of external pressure in order to allow these conversations happen here at all. They don't have to and very, very few sites would host us. We might moan but we're grateful they give us this platform. Reddit got rid of all their gender critical groups for example. Women frequently get banned from twitter for defending women's rights. It's a global concern.

I agree- Mumsnet HQ do a fab job. Reddit have disallowed any talk about women's rights that relates to biological women / banned subreddits and delete posts that go against a very strict narrative.

(Although obviously all the porn bits of reddit can still be "pictures of cis-women only"- because... Reasons Hmm)

lightand · 04/02/2021 21:29

I havent read up much about current feminism in quite some time, but the subject heading on this thread caught my eye.
I have sort of read the thread.

Who is at the forefront, going up in social/political/world circles whereever, of all of this? Does anyone know? Is it an organisation? A person, or group?
No one need bother to answer, if my question is actually quite stupid.

lightand · 04/02/2021 21:31

Where does the "MN external pressure" come from? Advertisers?

theskyispink · 04/02/2021 21:58

If you want somewhere where you can speak your kind, I have invite codes for Ovarit. If you're interested drop me a message.

WouldBeGood · 04/02/2021 22:01

What’s ovarit @theskyispink?

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 04/02/2021 22:10

@lightand

Where does the "MN external pressure" come from? Advertisers?
I think that people lurk hoping to get screenshots to prove that Mumsnet are filled with evil old bigoted hags (who eg. Think that females shouldn't have to compete against biological males in boxing), and then these people put pressure on advertisers etc.
WouldBeGood · 04/02/2021 22:14

Christ, I wouldn’t even box my 12 year old ds