Woman's Hour: What happened this morning?

[NonCisWoman]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9117995/Actress-refuses-appear-Womans-Hour-accusing-host-Emma-Barnett-degrading-comments.html

An actress refused to appear on Woman's Hour this morning after accusing host Emma Barnett of making 'degrading and vile' comments about her.

Kelechi Okafor was set to talk on the BBC Radio 4 show to discuss the #MeToo movement with new presenter Emma Barnett.

But as the programme was live on air, the Nigerian-British actress revealed she had come off the show, writing: 'Because what I've just had to witness is absolutely degrading and vile.'

Posting a video to Instagram, she said: 'I won't be going on Woman's Hour now. The host didn't realise her mic was on as she was talking s* about me to the producers.'

Look, Lllama, the experience of getting your arse handed to you on here is practically a rite of passage. Don’t take it too personally, the tone here can be robust, and we are often visited by previously banned posters and malicious types who like to chuck grenades. You have made some statements on here that are going to be challenged- that EB and LS are racists- and other people disagree and find some of them (eg that EB enjoys talking down to “uppity black women”) objectionable and maybe not conducive to reasoned, respectful debate. Me, I’m happy to debate them, FWIW.

That quote from LS is atrocious. KO has the right to speak about the separate issue of MeToo whether she's anti-semitic or not. EB would have found time to challenge her about her appalling past comments so I find it rather difficult to believe she couldn't have said something to LS about her equally disgusting statements, especially given what she said on the show. There is no excuse for letting it go unchallenged, I don't care how much of the show was left, I'm certain KO wouldn't have got away with it.

No, I'm certainly not an apologist for Jew hate, quite the opposite. I just don't like the way a black woman is being attacked while people are falling over themselves to excuse a white woman for what is now arguably worse behaviour after that car crash of a show.

Llama, I didn't take to you when you reduced another woman to "a pimp's daughter".

You know what, all, I agree that EB should have asked LS to articulate her view on BLM (if time did permit). But not in an “oh my god, we must skewer the awful racist”, but like a proper interviewer, in order to draw out and articulate what LS’s views actually are. Actually, LS is very interesting on this topic- I don’t agree with everything she says, but I want to live in a society where she gets to say it without everyone just lazily accusing her of being a racist.

EB ought to have some the same for KO. No argument from me there. The outrage archaeology isn’t moving the debate forward.

Agree with you, Sophocles. Think Lionel Shriver is difficult and don't agree with everything, or even much, of what she says but she often thought provoking. There was no need for anyone to add the bells and whistles to what she is quoted as saying, though. It was bad enough as it was.

'Jew hate', eh, Alltheprettyseahorse? That strikes me as a very disrespectful phrase.

@Abhannmor

Lionel is a bitter pill isn't she? On the other hand surely it is legitimate to ask someone about antisemitism even if they are not Jeremy Corbyn.

Lionel is an extremely unusual person; her frustrations are both accurate, imo, and high.

She's referring to a dominant trend in publishing. Anyone who works in, or is adjacent to, publishing, is aware of it. It's the trend towards #ownvoices, with utter disregard for what the narrowing of fiction to memoir means for fiction.

She does mean to provoke, in-service of her commitment to fiction.

The skewering of what is currently holy is something she takes great delight in as an author. In another time, her aim would be elsewhere, depending on the dominant caste. Right now, it's the holy ghost of middle class progressivism in publishing, and those with hyperbolic reactions to the idea that a writer can imaginatively write about someone they are not.

What I'm not seeing Lionel do is use anti-Semitic tropes b/c she is keen on blaming the Jews for sexual assault, and for that we can all give thanks.

Perhaps when the 'deliberately calling Jews Shylock and proud' person apologises for her anti-Semitism, and WH apologises for being unprofessional, we can turn our thoughts to Lionel and her views on publishing.

An apology from WH would have been helpful. Unfortunately KO was so keen to establish her own narrative of what happened, and did so without being open and frank with the facts, it means WH apologising is rather tricky for them to do. A bald apology would confirm the KO narrative. Apologising while countering that narrative could stir things up horribly.

I have no idea whether KO's narrative is correct, ie "degrading and vile", "talked about like a dickhead", "a very violent incident".

I’ve never heard of this KO person before but I’d have thought that someone with such a clear track record of antisemitism would avoid courting controversy. She doesn’t come out of it looking good.

(The less said about LS the better, can’t believe she’s still getting booked tbh).

In short I think WH need to raise their ambitions for their guest list. New era not looking too great so far.

I have no idea whether KO's narrative is correct, ie "degrading and vile", "talked about like a dickhead", "a very violent incident”

I think we can be completely sure that no one from WH actually perpetrated any violence. The rest seems hyperbolic but without knowing what was actually said... I do wonder if it was something like “hey Emma, did you know that Kelechi’s on record as saying some pretty awful anti Semitic things, do you want to say something about that?”, then I can well imagine she’d take umbrage and it would not be a constructive start to the interview.

in the same way that I better understood LS’s views on BLM by the apparently bizarre notion of listening to her articulate them, I think I’d probably be able to better understand KOs views on Judaism by listening to her articulate them. We’ll never know, because it seems she find it offensive to even be asked to, which is rarely the sign of someone holding a nuanced view they’ve thought about and want to be able to communicate.

Wow lllama had a massive strop and flounce? Good grief. For all the hyperbole, you can't actually have an exchange of views if people stomp off in a huff every time they're challenged.

It seems to me that shriver and okafor are both professional contrarians. It's a shame Okafor stormed out and missed the opportunity to challenge Shriver.

No, Shriver is a professional novelist, with some contrarian views.

Wow, even with all the deleted posts, so much sympathy for a massive anti-Semite on this thread. And so much attacking of EB for the sins of her father.

Either a load of infiltrators or there's been a coup at MN too while I've been away.

KO is a nothingy actress who no-one had ever heard of, apart from her memorable racism. Appalling of WH researchers/producer to have booked the woman without doing due diligence, particularly knowing that EB is Jewish and has spoken before publicly about how personally distressing and hurtful she finds anti-Semitism and specifically how upset she was by Wiley's comments.
metro.co.uk/2020/07/27/bbc-radio-presenter-emma-slams-wiley-says-anti-semitic-words-burn-deep-13045063/

It's also going to be the fault of a techie or the producer that EB's mike was audible to other guests, not EB. If you're the presenter, you don't also manage the tech. Blaming EB for the cock-up is ridiculous.

I hope this is just the result of incompetence by WH staff rather than a deliberate attempt by one or more of them to undermine EB on her first week in the job.

Meanwhile, KO remains a deeply racist nonentity who should be ignored. There are any number of brilliant, eloquent black women who could have been invited instead of her - hardly as though KO was the only black woman or the only one capable of talking on MeToo. Whoever chose her to be on the show has a lot of questions to answer - did they do any due diligence at all?

And KO needs to apologise for her gross anti-Semitism before expecting anyone to take anything she says on racism (or anything else) seriously.

Agree with every word, xxyzz.

Thanks.

And those two Labour MPs are a disgrace. Starmer has really got his work cut out in rooting casual anti-Semitism out of the party.

@xxyzz

Thanks.

And those two Labour MPs are a disgrace. Starmer has really got his work cut out in rooting casual anti-Semitism out of the party.

It's dispiriting how pervasive it is in other social justice movements. One of the world's oldest and most harmful forms of prejudice and discrimination, causing untold harm - actual violence - to millions upon millions of innocents.

I've no time for anyone who whatabouts, denies or engages in either anti-Semitism or that other old hatred, misogyny.

I also agree. There are people on this thread - including the flouncer - who have never posted before

And yes, Shriver is a novelist and essayist. She also enjoys taking controversial positions. I wasn't really comparing her and Okafor.

If EB had challenged Shriver about what she said do we think that Shriver would have:

a) calmly explained how and why she had come to hold that opinion?
b) flounced off and then Tweeted about being called a dickhead and treated violently?

My main complaint about Shriver is that every interview I’ve seen so far she mumbles unintelligibly so I’ve no idea what she’s on about (and I don’t have a hearing impairment).

I’ll try that Triggernometry interview SophoclestheFox - and hope that YouTube subtitles can interpret if she is in Mumble Mode.

Bit late to this party but really interesting discussion to read through, am surprised that MN appear to have deleted posts at a poster’s request though? I’ve only seen that happen if a poster has been too identifying about a personal situation, rather than just didn’t like the responses she got. Odd. Difficult to read the thread in large parts now.

One thing I am a bit surprised about in all this - seeing as EVAW initially supported KO’s flouncing (describes it as appalling treatment of her, obviously written by Sarah Green personally but published from EVAW official Twitter account), do they not have any further comment on KO then accusing WH/EB of violence? Does EVAW not have any view on the continual woke appropriation of the term violence in attempts to close down debate?

No idea what was said because we haven’t been told. But being anti Semitic doesn’t give you some automatic right to be notified in advance that you’re going to be challenged about your antisemitism.

It shows the effectiveness of KO's response, get a narrative out there that appeals to woke types in the current climate, they jump on board without checking because, well, these days you don't have to if the signalling looks right (eg degrading and vile comments or violence to a woman of colour), and when it looks like this wasn't a smart move, they're stuck on that wagon having to remain silent since the alternative would be an embarrassing climbdown.

@SpiderGwen

For me it boils down to one point: Sarah Green, head of EVAW, was also listening to EB’s comments (as were LS and any other guests).

She said they were dreadful, completely unacceptable and she empathised with KO.

From that I am happy to accept Emma’s language was awful, unprofessional and insulting.

I am equally able to acknowledge KO’s previous comments are anti-Semitic and repugnant.

Woman’s Hour invited KO to talk about MeToo, not to defend her views on anti Semitism. If they haven’t done due diligence, that’s on them.

I generally agree with this - Sarah Green's voice carries a lot of weight we me as well.

Massive fail by the WH team - failure of research, failure to manage the situation and the guests. As PP said - one line in Google will find KO's comments on Yates (which is telling in itself) - does Emma really not do any research on her guests before speaking to them? I find that extraordinary.

LS should also have been challenged on both her sexist comments and her BLM comments. I've listened to years of LS talking on these subjects (and her "its all going to the dogs" routine). Its a lot of words which can usually be summarised as the standard white MC defence of the status quo. Her persistent misrepresentationi of "defund the Police" in the US is an example.

Yesterday's cock up wasn't much better. The studio team can't control their guests' connections but they can test them beforehand, give them clear guidance on set up and have a back up solution (old fashioned phone line). Rather as they do in most other live broadcasts. As a result one viewpoint was not effectively represented.

Monday's programme was billed as the inside track on the Cummings' office but was pretty much a damp squib when the guest avoided a lot of the questions. I put that down as bad luck but now I'm wondering if its just sloppy researching.

KO is a nothingy actress who no-one had ever heard of, apart from her memorable racism

I've heard of her and I'm certainly not the insta crowd. Are you basing "nothingy" on an objective assessment of her acting skills or just adding in casual slurs for effect? And how famous does she have to be not to have to deal with this type of unprofessionalism? Would she get a pass for her comments if she wasn't "nothingy"?

This is definitely a production issue. If due diligence had been done she wouldn't have been booked, given her anti-Semitic comments and seemingly limited experience as an actress, and they could have booked a black woman who was either an activist or actress with wide ranging experience of the industry who hadn't made racist slurs against another group. It's a cock up. The whole team need to have a word with themselves.

Bear in mind that the BBC had been getting back to something nearer normal in recent weeks, with programmes being broadcast from studios again, but after the recent move to Tier 4 it's been back home, locked down, and onto Zoom with people working remotely and more room for cock-ups. Is there a woman here who hasn't failed to mute or unmute or otherwise had a Zoom-fail moment?

I've now read the Jewish Chronicle article and all I can say is that anyone who has publicly said what KO has said needs to be braced to be called a dickhead and worse — whatever the colour of their skin or age or sexuality or political leanings. Being black doesn't buy you a free pass.

If the other guests also overheard the conversation then that's an even bigger blunder than I realised from the WH team.

However I still don't feel inclined to let another person - however well regarded - decide on my behalf whether the conversation was acceptable. Just tell us what was said.