Woman's Hour: What happened this morning?

[NonCisWoman]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9117995/Actress-refuses-appear-Womans-Hour-accusing-host-Emma-Barnett-degrading-comments.html

An actress refused to appear on Woman's Hour this morning after accusing host Emma Barnett of making 'degrading and vile' comments about her.

Kelechi Okafor was set to talk on the BBC Radio 4 show to discuss the #MeToo movement with new presenter Emma Barnett.

But as the programme was live on air, the Nigerian-British actress revealed she had come off the show, writing: 'Because what I've just had to witness is absolutely degrading and vile.'

Posting a video to Instagram, she said: 'I won't be going on Woman's Hour now. The host didn't realise her mic was on as she was talking s* about me to the producers.'

But the point - for me - is that, as far as I'm aware, neither KO nor the person backing her up has given an account of what was actually said. Unless I hear that, any sympathies I have are going to be qualified.

That is the point. Which is why comments like "Guest A joins a session to find herself being trashtalked (I'm paraphrasing her) by a sloppy bunch of researchers" are dishonest.

Today's Guardian discusses this, referring to KO's 'allegedly antisemitic remarks'. Good old Guardian, as ever minimizing the issue

I wonder if we've always been an alt-critical society or whether the fast flow of information has made things worse. It seems we're all the same, all doing a bit of a TRA condemnation (though we are discussing better). I think my consideration in all of this is that if the comments hadn't been heard, the sentiments still apply, EB is Jewish and has a right to discuss anti-Semitism and it would have been relevant to any discussion on BLM because discrimination is central. If one supports BLM it does not follow that you are pure (even though you may think you are the purest) and that argument deserves to be heard

KO said in her initial statement that she is happy to discuss her past comments. Her issue was that the comments were brought up rudely and unprofessionally, which EVAW agree with.

Is that a good enough reason to storm out. Better to discuss on air and cause the most embarrassment I would have thought. That would have been the intelligent thing to do

@NonCisWoman

KO said in her initial statement that she is happy to discuss her past comments. Her issue was that the comments were brought up rudely and unprofessionally, which EVAW agree with.

She overheard them discussing it - they weren't 'brought up'. And until she or the EVAW woman actually tell us what was said that was so awful, I'm withholding judgment

It seems we're all the same, all doing a bit of a TRA condemnation (though we are discussing better).

It depends on the issues being discussed. Some of the discussion is about facts. For example that puberty blockers are not reversible while dealing with widespread disinformation that they are reversible (while the trans activist might mutter in their head "but only for a very narrow application for a highly select cohort"). This is about facts. And that's how this relates to the WH blunder, the facts aren't being presented while the feelings are dominating.

I presume no one is saying that KO should get a free pass and never be challenged about her alleged anti-semitic comments? (use alleged like Private Eye). She just flounced off herself. She hasn't stated what was said.
Turn it around. If KO was presenting WH and the researchers had just revealed that one of her guests had been likewise allegedly been peddling nasty tropes about black people. Not orgs, tropes about black people. Would KO have said 'Ah, no worries'. (sic, see I used their as could be of either sex).
KO shouldn't have flounced off. She could have said what she wanted on air. There is no justification for tropes, though. Maybe she knew this. Maybe she should have gone on air and said that.

I'm not defending EB. It depends what was said and if it was bad then that needs to be called out. And shouldn't be accepted whether zoom had let in guests or not. This still wouldn't mean that KO gets a free pass for her previously alleged anti-semitism.

@EuroTrashed

what did lionel shriver come up with? she really is rent a gob these days - a shame because I really liked a lot of her books

Same here. Good novels, silly woman.

No I think anyone is entitled to walk out of a radio interview. I also think the WH team acted unprofessionally and, if the other guests also heard them talking about KO then that makes it even worse than I thought. We all make mistakes but that was a bad one.

It's just I also think that, if you describe a conversation as 'vile' and 'degrading' then you need to be specific about what was said.

For the sake of discussion, I'm compiling all the twitter stuff here, because I think otherwise it's too easy for them to be distorted in the paraphrasing that naturally occurs.

KO:
"Hi guys I’m coming off woman’s hour because what I’ve just had to witness is absolutely degrading and vile.

"The host didn’t realise her mic was on as she was talking about me before the interview started is all I’m going to say. 🥲

"You can have a genuine concern about something you’ve been told about me and address it in a manner that is kind. That wasn’t what took place. Myself and the other people who would be talking during the segment could hear me being talked about like a dickhead.

"When she clocks the mic is on suddenly it’s “well kelechi could you just explain to me because I’m trying to give you a chance to explain...”

"It was on your producers to have explained and done their research. It was on you to check your mic.

"The need for me on today’s show was to offer balance to these wayward women thinking that the MeToo movement is no longer needed. The fact is that if you feel it’s no longer needed for your white middle class sensibilities marginalised voices still need it.

"We haven’t heard from everybody regarding the violations they’ve faced. The originators of the MeToo movement were Black women. From enslaved Black women who were raped by slave owners to Tarana Burke yet their voices are yet to be honoured."

I can't see why specifying what was degrading and vile would be white, MC language.

Next:
EVAW: "I was also booked for @BBCWomansHour this AM and heard the appalling treatment @kelechnekoff was subjected to minutes b4 broadcast; it was really unfair and then led to a #MeToo discussion with no black woman's voice. Woman's Hour shd apologise to her and really must do better."*

[Later, after EB and the BBC released their statement]

KO:

"The assumption is that you can twist a very violent incident because you assume people don’t generally believe Black women.

"Glad that somebody else who isn’t mad could confirm what truly transpired.

"There’s choosing the wrong one, and then there’s choosing me.The misogynoir jumped out with “questioning what qualifies someone to be a leading voice in a space”

"I haven’t touted myself as a leading voice but I’m interested as to what qualifies you to gate-keep in such a way.Interesting that the statement missed out allllllllll the expletives used about me while the mic was thought to be muted.

"Wonder where the journalistic integrity is in that.

"There’s levels to ancestors.

"Trust me wholeheartedly when I say

"It’s above me now."

The assumption is that you can twist a very violent incident because you assume people don’t generally believe Black women.

This is my favourite tweet. There was no "very violent incident" but we have to believe there was simply because she said so. Anyone who doesn't believe her is guilty of "misogynoir".

I appreciate KO has been supported by EVAW, but I don't outsource my opinions to charitable organisations. I think there has been quite enough of that in general in recent years!

It is clear there were at least two technical screw-ups (first the research team not letting EB know about KO's past comments in advance, and secondly KO overhearing the last minute discussion) and KO found it very hurtful.

Beyond that, we know nothing.

It's odd to expect kindness from a Jewish woman when you've made anti Semitic statements. I wonder if Okafor would be kind to someone who'd made racist statements?

I think you're entitled to professionalism and fairness from a BBC journalist but not kindness and I think it's a bit off to expect that.
However I don't think KO's treatment was professional and,to my mind, there's some doubt about fairness, but I don't think I know enough to form an opinion.

I'm not clear about whether 'a very violent incident' refers to what happened in the studio or to a Metoo incident. But if it's the first then yeah I also find that quite odd.

'Odd' not off.

Who was KO calling mad? As in "Glad that somebody else who isn’t mad could confirm what truly transpired'. Yet, still ne'er a word about what was actually said.

I read that as KO was saying that she herself had been dismissed as mad.

I thought KO was alluding to the EVAW woman guest (who corroborated that KO was treated poorly) as being not mad (unlike the beeb team?)...

I'm having more trouble with the phrase:

"There’s levels to ancestors..."

Anyone? I'd really like to know what Kelechi is alluding to here.

not the foggiest. Perhaps because I'm white middle class?

I thought KO was alluding to the EVAW woman guest (who corroborated that KO was treated poorly) as being not mad (unlike the beeb team?)...

That makes far more grammatical sense! Thank you.

Take this with a pinch of salt, as I was well wrong last time, but I have been reading her TL. So I think the ancestor reference is a reference to her personal spiritual/religious beliefs. Same sentiment as someone saying that a matter is in the gods' (or God's) hands now.

I googled, with quote marks "levels to ancestors" and the only hit I got was Kelechi saying it in her Twitter feed.

Maybe it's a typo?

Try "there's levels to". Seems to be a common phrase, and also brings up an internet meme.

What qualifies EB to chair a discussion on #MeToo and sexual abuse when she has been recorded as calling trafficking victims 'whores'? That's her problem.’

This ^