I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

Post & run. Never a good trait.

It’s very simple.
Society says females have X,y,z interests and characteristics. Males have a, b and C interests and personal characteristics.

I am born with a female body but I like a,b and x. Because I’m “old school” GC I decide the social stereotypes are bollocks and anyone can like a,b,c,z,x or y.

If I were born in the last 20 years it seems that instead of fighting stereotypes instead I’d embrace then and declare myself trans as I’m more like the male stereotype.

These young people like the OP think they’re so open minded and accepting of everyone - but the irony is that this idea of inherent gender feelings is anything but open minded, it totally supports the stereotypes and perpetuates them.

How do you know that it's your mother that you disagree with here? How do you know which parent zhey are

This, oh and who decided which parent would carry the child and which would impregnate the other?

Men and women absolutely CAN compete against each other in sports and surely taking the view that they can’t is very anti feminist
So all those other sports that have been segregated since forever like rugby, wrestling, running, boxing are safe enough for women and men to mix? You sure?

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?

Women and young children use women only spaces. Some have been sexually assaulted and feel safer in women’s only spaces. As a petite thin woman, I’m not able to fight against men that attack me. Anyone can identify as a woman, even if they still have testes and a penis. Also, it’s not fair that biological men are able to win awards in women’s categories because they identify as women.

If you’re trans then fine. I have no issue as it’s your body and business. Why should I? However, women have fought for centuries for equal rights and biological men shouldn’t take these away from us. I also dislike “womxn.”

1. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?

Tricky. There’s a reason why there’s segregated sports/athletics competitions for men and women. It gives women a level playing field as they play against other women. How many people are born intersex?

1. What makes a woman?

Chromosomes, levels of testosterone and other dna that make a biological man or woman. Behaviour, fashion choice and interests don’t make you a man or woman. You can like traditionally masculine things if you’re a woman. If you’re a man, you can still like feminine things. Interests do not dictate your sex or gender.

Did OP ever come back?

So, I was watching Katy Keene the other day- one character is a drag performer. When he is in costume, he gets referred to as' she' - like all it takes to be a woman is to put on a sparkly dress and lots of makeup.

But they kept referring to ' convincing ' performers as fishy and filet o fish.

My god that's offensive. How is that ok?
And it was on the BBC?

I was going to come on to ask op how op defines ‘woman’ but I see that op hasn’t returned. Best of luck finding the “transphobia” that you are clearly fishing for.
In the meantime, cake: my Christmas cake is excellent this year though I say so myself (my late father used to make it, and I took up the baton on his death-we try and avoid restrictive gender stereotyping in our family )

Gender neutral toilets which have become popular on the back of this movement. I now don't go out due to being verbally assaulted three times (who let the dogs out), in gender neutral loos.
Also its awful for girls in schools who now have nowhere they feel safe to go to the loo all day, and as a result are not urinating all day resulting in bladder problems.

Women are the part of the species that bares our young. Not every woman will choose to have a child and not every woman will be capable of having a child, but the role is crucial for understanding feminism. Pregnancy, childbirth, and breastfeeding makes us physically and financially vulnerable. In my younger, more naive days I thought feminism was about treating everyone equally, but it’s not. Feminism has to be about letting women be full participants in all aspects of society, while still enabling women to fill a role essential to the continuation of our species. You can’t separate the biology from feminism because it’s the only part that matters.

So three hours after @borandukht placed her OP, they have yet to return to engage with any of the 208 messages. How - unsurprising.

Im a woman, born female.
I'm an engineer, I don't like pink much, I wear trousers, support my family (as a single mum), I'm very good at DIY, I speak in masculine clause, assertive, sure of myself. Feminism taught me that I can be these things.
Recently, when buying Christmas presents late and in a rush, and not caring much about this, I thought maybe I am a man?
Do you think I am?

Women's subjugation is rooted in their biology.
Smaller, weaker, slower and possible to impregnate.
This means that males have a physical advantage over women. Generally we are not able to out-fight males or out-run males, which makes us vulnerable and is why safe spaces have been fought so hard for.
This is not because of the clothes we wear or the feminine names we have; it's because of our inescapable biology.

In many instances, including transwomen is a non-issue. I'm happy to call them the name they prefer. I support their right to work, housing, health care etc.

In some instances, where male and female biology is relevant, it is a huge issue. The biggest issues to me are:

Female only rape crisis centres for women who do not want to be around males while they recover. They don't want to be reminded of their physical vulnerability to males.

Female sports where male physical advantage would mean females would lose a spot.

Women's prisons where the most vulnerable women in our society are housed without any means of escape.

Lesbians should not be challenged on their sexual boundaries.

Any male bodied person who wishes and expects to force themselves into these spaces are the exact males we don't want in them. I understand that they may feel uncomfortable in the men's equivalent but the solution IS NOT to impose and transfer those feelings of discomfort on women. We are not collateral for men's validation.

I see the OP's not bothered to come back and engage in the discussion she asked for.

There was a reason why Stonewall insisted on No Debate. If you haven't got a rational line of argument and can only insist you're right and everyone else is wrong you daren't have a debate.

Power to you, OP's mum. She'll grow up.

Coming back? Odd to say here for discussion but then to disappear...

Not odd at all.

They are probably engrossed in their Twinkle annual or something.

because if you didn't know it already women good - penises bad....i think that's basically it. other than that anecdotal evidence is brought out to argue their point. professional sport - in a country where most of the population is obese/overweight let alone unsporty, debates about girls and men in toilets etc......i would say it's basically scaremongering. the notion that men will just randomly claim transgender rights is scaremongering. the notion thats lesbians do not assault other women is moronic and the fear of a girl next to a penis but not a boy next to a penis is frnakly shortsighted at best and sexist at worst.

at a time when austerity has destroyed refugees full stop, child service have no cash and the right wing agenda is on the rise - debates about such marginal insistences of the transgression of trans people -basically takes us away from the proper discussion of why are the elites mke lots of money and everyone else is squabbling over crumbs.

ultimately, many liberal feminists of the previous generation are no longer and have become conservative for whom the world was comforting when women were good and men were bad. At least then we all knew where we stood. And then young people came along and messed it up and got it all confused again. Not only can women now wear trousers but shock horror men can now wear dresses - which is just wrong and scary and just not nice.

Eff off mate, I'm sporty. Please don't minimize my legitimate concerns because you are too lazy to put down the mince pies.

I must learn to check whether the OP has been back before I bother reading past the first paragraph, wish there was a way to avoid ploppers 🙄

I'd suggest it's a luxury raclette not to have to worry about access to single sex rape crisis centres, or women's refuges. Do you feel any empathy for women who need those spaces and why they might want them to exclude people who are born male? Do you believe it's possible to care about more than one issue at the same time? Or do you think women are incapable of doing that?

@JohnMcClane

Did OP ever come back?

Nope.

Incoherent. Suggest you express your own opinion not your misinterpretation of others

As it is,I am unclear if you think men wearing g dresses is bad or you think other people think so. Also not sure how men in dresses is relevant to a debate on trans identity?

@Shedbuilder

I see the OP's not bothered to come back and engage in the discussion she asked for.

There was a reason why Stonewall insisted on No Debate. If you haven't got a rational line of argument and can only insist you're right and everyone else is wrong you daren't have a debate.

Power to you, OP's mum. She'll grow up.

👏🏻

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

Do you think it is acceptable for a bloke with a penis to be standing next to you naked opposite you in a a) woman’s changing room b) in a woman’s prison cell? Do you think men should win all the races? Do you think you can safely send an 8 year old girl into a toilet area on their own if it is frequented by both men and women? Most transwomen retain their penises, are bigger & stronger than women and retain male offending patterns of behaviour. All the woke speak does is hide the fact that women are being put in danger by all of this. Wear what you want by all means but you have to ask yourself why more and more men want to access women’s spaces? Old school transsexuals never wanted this, why now?

Couldn’t agree more.

Well, this is bait if ever I saw it. Why do I seriously doubt we’ll see you again, OP?
First off, I don’t believe you’ve really listened to anybody GC. If you had, you might have asked questions that covered something more than the same-old well-worn ground, or maybe made some points that backed up your own views. See, I don’t think you have any depth of understanding of the issue at all, you just parrot things you’ve heard from a few people you like or admire, and read a lot of self-filtered social media. The reason I say that is because if you’d truly examined the topic in a dispassionate and neural way, with a view to truly learning, you’d have noticed that there are a few problems with the current all-or-nothing pro- trans debate. Here’s a few questions you need to ask yourself and answer honestly.

Why are you comfortable with forcing female people, who may have a traumatic history of male violence or abuse, to accept visibly male transwomen in places where they otherwise feel safe? Why is all your empathy exclusively towards transwomen? Why do you have no feelings of sympathy for anyone else? Why do you feel it’s not only fair, but important, for the mental suffering of of vulnerable women to be disregarded in this way?
Why do you think this has anything to do with people who have intersex conditions? There is currently no solid scientific proof that there is a connection between trans and intersex, in fact, many intersex people have stated that they are uncomfortable with the way they’re used in the debate. You don’t seem to be aware of this.
If you feel transwomen prisoners should be held in the female estate, do you think transmen should also be held in men’s prisons? If not, why not, and why do you feel the situation is different? If you think that transmen are too vulnerable, why do you not feel the same about a male person held with vulnerable females?

I’m not expecting any answers....

SMH no wonder female rights are going to pot if this is what the young feminists are touting these days. Shame on you, perhaps educate yourself instead of telling women who have lived and learned a hell of a lot more than you that they’re wrong.