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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

999 replies

borandukht · 27/12/2020 11:08

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

  1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
  2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
  3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

OP posts:
HecatesCats · 27/12/2020 14:27

Strolling into Mumsnet writing off women who are older and those who've had kids of being out of touch. Like this hasn't always happened. Like the wealth of life experience that women have racked up isn't repeatedly viewed as less serious or important. Do bore off with your misogyny, it's as old as the hills.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/12/2020 14:28

Your mum sounds great OP. Wish her a happy Christmas from me. Cin cin! Wine

anotherhumanfemale · 27/12/2020 14:30

I'm guessing we'll find these answers screenshotted somewhere.

SheldonesqueIsUnwell · 27/12/2020 14:30

To OP’s mam... salute 🍷

HecatesCats · 27/12/2020 14:30

Back to the cheese

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 27/12/2020 14:31

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Your mum sounds great OP. Wish her a happy Christmas from me. Cin cin! Wine
And this!
peanut2017 · 27/12/2020 14:37

Great points made on this thread. Hopefully others who are interested might read them and get a new perspective if they are not sure about this debate.

@borandukht tell your mother she is a great woman who was able to have an opinion, read alternative opinions and change her mind. Think you could take a lead out of her book

ChestnutStuffing · 27/12/2020 14:38

Things that are sex segregated are, in almost every instance, segregated because of something to do with sex, not gender.

Being trans does not change your sex, which is unchangeable. Gender presentation doesn't have anything to do with why we don't have races with women competing against men, or why may women might prefer not to stay in a room in a hostel with a strange man, or why a woman might not like to hear a male voice at the other ned of a rape crises line. It doesn't have anything to do with why women want laws protecting their jobs when they give birth, or that mean they can take a break in order to pump breastmilk.

SpongeBobJudgeyPants · 27/12/2020 14:40

Not buying this. At all. If what 'us lot' (rude) think is very wrong and uninformed, you need to address this. If this was an essay, you would be accused of just having a goady rant, without addressing why we are 'wrong'. I feel this might actually be about unseasonal goady fuckery , but if not, I would suggest you may change your mind a bit when you've experienced as much of this space violation stuff as most women have. Ask your mother. You need to have been round the block a couple of times. There are many school (boy?) errors in your rant. Hmm

AsCoolAsKimDeal · 27/12/2020 14:42

Sending some Christmas GinGin to your mum, it sounds like she'll need it.

ClareCAIS · 27/12/2020 14:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WhatTiggersDoBest · 27/12/2020 14:45

Here's where you lost me, OP:
If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?
I thought the whole point of the TRA movement was for people to self-determine their own gender, in which case, through that worldview, who are you or I or anyone else to say what gender any individual is? In which case why are YOU trying to label someone?

I'm not engaging in the rest because your logic is an utter mess and there have been too many excellent responses already which you're not acknowledging. I suspect you're just going to screenshot all this and label us all as TERFs on Facebook/Twitter anyway which is hilarious when you're the one trying to gender someone else in your OP but don't let hypocrisy stand in the way of a good rant. Also you refer to yourself as "young" but what has your age got to do with anything aside from perhaps some immaturity? People on MN come from across the generations and we don't all speak with the same voice.

yourhairiswinterfire · 27/12/2020 14:45

professional sport - in a country where most of the population is obese/overweight let alone unsporty

What are you on about?

We're talking about women who are sporty, who are athletes and the women who are hoping to become professional athletes in the future, who work hard and dedicate their time to training. Why should they be forced to play against males who have unfair advantages?

queenofknives · 27/12/2020 14:47

When will we see you, OP? (tra lala lala lala la)
When will we share precious debate?
Will you always be this ru-u-ude?
Will you stay ignorant? And goady and obtuse?
When will we see you again...
When will we see you again...

viques · 27/12/2020 14:48

Thankyou for your post @Diverze.

I think as a long time feminist who naively thought that we had won most of the big battles (not all of them, but enough to make things feel a lot more equal than when I was young) the whole trans issue came to me as something of a shock. I thought I lived in a society where by and large most life styles that didn’t impinge on other people’s well being were accepted. That people’s choices were respected, that tolerance was a value that had currency in our society. I knew this didn’t apply to everyone , but we were working on it and moving forward.

Then suddenly, not only did I discover a hitherto generally unseen culture that said it was discriminated against and often reviled but it turned out that I , who would previously have described myself, and prided myself, as a tolerant and non discriminatory human was actually one of the major discriminators and revilers. I was one of the people denying other people their rights, I was one of the people whose selfish behaviour was blocking someone else’s freedom to live their life as they wanted. And all because of my XX genes, which made me a woman. I was an adult human being with a womb and a uterus, and I was the enemy. I was shocked. And ashamed. But when I began to examine the situation a bit more I became angry.

Because it turns out that while I am not the person responsible for making some trans people uncomfortable and threatened in male spaces I am the one who has to shift over and accommodate them in my spaces.

And while I am not the person responsible for the lack of representation of trans people in organisations and groups I am the one who has to lose my representation as a woman.

And while I am not the person who has chosen how sexes are referred to and named in our language, I am the one who is expected to accept my sex being erased from ,or reduced to made up terminology in , documents, advice and information even when those documents, advice and information are directly referencing my sex.

And while I am not responsible for the biology that gives the male sex longer bone length, greater heart size, lung capacity, muscle strength and pelvic floor stability I am expected to acquiesce to athletes with those capabilities expecting to be given equality with female athletes without them, and to watch my sisters being beaten and demoralised by those who don’t understand basic concepts of fairness.

I have been put in the middle of a battle, a battle moreover being waged by people who are not prepared to use the normal processes of change like engagement, debate, understanding and negotiation but who instead use bad science, lies, bullying,intimidation and threats to get their own way and who cynically coerce vulnerable people to their cause

Well I have fought battles before, I have fought for human rights, for workers rights, for women’s rights to the autonomy of their bodies, I have supported anti racism movements, anti fascist movements, peace movements.

So I’m up for another one. I am happy for trans people to be part of our society , to take their place as productive members of the community, to have dignity and respect, to be free to love who they want to, to have access to the health care they need both physical and mental, but , hell , I am damned if I allow that to happen if it means relegating half the adult population of the country back to being pushed into the shadows and refused their humanity because they have the genes that make them women.

AvocadoBathroom · 27/12/2020 14:51

Your mum sounds fantastic, a well informed feminist with strong views around child safeguarding and the protection of women.

Do you still live with her? Does she cook you Xmas dinner?

I feel sorry for your mum OP. It must be exhausting and tedious to have to deal with your disrespect and disdain.

viques · 27/12/2020 14:52

Oops, should have said womb and vagina! Got a bit carried away.

CaraDuneRedux · 27/12/2020 14:53

Oh look, 241 posts and OP has not been back. What a surprise.

How's the screen-shot harvesting going, OP?

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 27/12/2020 14:54

They haven’t come back so I assume this is just a glossy thread.

SisterWendyBuckett · 27/12/2020 14:57

What a horrid Mummy you've got!

Mothers with a mind of their own are the worst!

midgebabe · 27/12/2020 15:01

Surely it should've silk or satin , not gloss and def not matte

whoamongstus · 27/12/2020 15:07

Interesting that a PP says OP must not be GC because she's not experienced as much 'having her spaces intruded upon' and hasn't been 'round the block as much' as her mum. You have probably shared spaces with many trans women and had no idea, you do know that don't you?

DialSquare · 27/12/2020 15:08

One day in your life
You’ll remember this place
And go red in the face
You’ll come back and you’ll thank all around you.

One day in your life
When you find a critical thought
And become fully aware
Just call our name and we’ll be there.

You'll remember us somehow
Though you don't need us now
We will stay in your heart
And when things fall apart
You'll remember one day

HecatesCats · 27/12/2020 15:10

@whoamongstus

Interesting that a PP says OP must not be GC because she's not experienced as much 'having her spaces intruded upon' and hasn't been 'round the block as much' as her mum. You have probably shared spaces with many trans women and had no idea, you do know that don't you?
Do you know what sort of experiences PP is referring to? Can you empathise with women over those experiences? Do you know that the 'transumbrella' and 'acceptance without exception' means anyone who says they are a woman should be allowed to use single sex spaces? Can you see why these two things are problematic?
EdgeOfACoin · 27/12/2020 15:11

Trouble is, when a poster starts a thread and then doesn't come back to engage in the discussion, it leads one to conclude that the poster doesn't have any good responses to the points and issues raised.

Unless and until the OP comes back, I shall assume that is the case.

I am, of course, willing to be proved wrong. Until then, I wish the OP's mum a very happy Christmas.

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