I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

@WhereYouLeftIt

"So, I'm here to listen."

Really? Looks to me that you're here to collect screenshots.

Yep.

Maybe mum's turned off the router and changed the password and is now also changing her username ...

There was a list of questions that came about from a recent AIBU thread about JK Rowling. They had all been asked separately on the thread, but a diligent poster collated them all in one place. Some questions are more relevant to this particular conversation than others, but perhaps the OP and her mum could use these questions as a jumping-off point for further discussion:

24/12/2020 19:39TheBuffster

So the unanswered questions we've yet to receive answers on:

What JK actually said that was transphobic?

Can you please quote the parts of her essay that were transphobic?

Is it ok to acknowledge sex is real or is that transphobic?

If people are being transphobic to express concern about males competing in female sports?

If it's transphobic to have single sex spaces?

As transwomen offend at the same rate as men are women justified in exercising caution?

If men or transwomen don't pose a threat why do we need single sex spaces to begin with?

How can we protect Muslim women and abuse victims if they can't access single sex spaces?

Why are vulnerable women's rights less important than transwomen's rights?

Why are transmen's rights only ever explored when someone wants to do away with the word women?

Does the erosion of the word women not carry risks when applied to medical contexts?

Are women not at risk from missing out on medical procedures due to the muddying of language?

What rights do trans people not have?

How is JK trying to take these away?

How do you define women without biology without resorting to stereotypes?

Aren't stereotypes harmful?

How will safeguarding issues be addressed if deadnaming and access to shared spaces is brought in?

Why are women not allowed to meet and discuss their rights?

Why are groups accused of transphobia simply by not having it as their main aim?

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Maybe mum's turned off the router and changed the password and is now also changing her username ...

OP please define what it is to be female so we can understand what you think feminism in what way people such as eddie izzard or karen white, or jessica janiv embody being a female ?

There is so much I don't understand and this all needs to be discussed if we are going to make rules and even change laws over it.

That transman that absolutely felt like a man, as far as he was concerned he was a man. He could not live as a woman. He had to have medical treatment to make him resemble the secondary sex characteristic of a man. This was his authentic self. Anyone who suggested otherwise would be totally transphobic.

Then he decided he wanted to have a baby. Stopped taking drugs, lost the secondary sex characteristics, started having periods again. and just reverted to the female sex characteristics that enabled pregnancy and birth.

How? How is this person saying in one breath that they are genuinely a man and in the next that they want to temporarily suspend that. No man can do that.

Does it ever make you wonder why women’s charities and services are unable to use the word “woman”’to be inclusive to trans people but men’s services and charities continue to be as exclusionary as they want? And why they are never criticised for it despite any female specific org gets hammered?

Why is it transphobic to say women but fine to say men?

Well this is a great discussion isn't it...

Some excellent questions there Edge, thanks for sharing. The dodging questions (no debate) approach feels a little tired nowadays. That includes posters that pretend to answer questions without actually doing so in any meaningful way. I'd love to know OP's answers. Meanwhile there's a cheese board with my name on it...

The process of this coming out of the mum's body is really quite memorable for most women, and does concentrate the mind on what is meant by 'sex' and 'gender'. I think is probably why when Eddie Izzard says he's now in 'girl mode', so many mums roll their eyes.

This is very, very true. I don't think I really saw the need for feminism until I had children and saw the effect - on my treatment by medical professionals, on my body, on my job and career, on the way I was treated and belittled, put on the "mummy" track, the effect on my relationship, my health (still can't stand properly post SPD), my sex life, my life!

All directly or indirectly associated with me being a biological female, things that natal males, no matter how much hormones they take, will never experience (along with PMT, periods, pregnancy, childbirth, menopause, near constant sexual harassment when young then being invisible and ignored when older). This is why we roll our eyes at men "becoming women".

Hi. I have name changed for this post.
I have an autistic teenager and have worked with autistic young people for many years.

I cannot overstate how concerned I am that autistic young people are disproportionately impacted by the transgender "explosion".
These are socially vulnerable young people who very frequently feel they do not fit in. They feel different. They have, as part of the condition of being autistic, difficulty with thinking flexibly and a tendency to obsess. They go online to find out why they don't fit in with the girls at school (most are natal girls) and are being sucked in to a rainbow community which offers acceptance and answers. So far so good, except that this community is not entirely benign. Emo kids, goths, punks, all the previous 'alternate' communities that accepted "odd balls", were transitory. If you are a female and have had your breasts removed and taken testosterone, you can't reverse that. If you are a male and have taken estrogen and grown breasts, you can't reverse that. It is terrifying that this is sold to autistic young people as an answer alongside a narrative of threatening suicide if those around you don't comply, and that it is literal violence if people around you don't acquiesce to the pathway. As a parent it's terrifying knowing your children may even be removed from your care in some countries if you resist them being trans.

Any advice regarding managing transgender autistic teens must take account of the vulnerabilities of neurodiverse teens and this has to include an acknowledgement of the flexible thinking/narrowed focus and how this could be targeted into an absolute conviction that "the reason I don't fit in with the girls is because I am a boy", and that whilst this is undoubtedly a sincerely held belief at that time, it is potentially explicable through viewing via an autism lens. And in this community trans teens should be "treated" by respect, clothes and hair change, name change, and waiting. Putting autistic youths on cross sex hormones that will sterilise them without fully and advisedly considering the impact of their brain based neurology on their comprehension and presentation and tendency for radicalisation is close to eugenics in my view.

My son was radicalised by Japanese cartoon pornography with futanari and traps (hermaphroditic characters and characters that appear female but reveal penises when unclothed). The confusion and shame engendered in him getting aroused as a young teen by a "girl" who turned out to be a boy was deep and significant and I think this movement is deeply problematic and common in the autistic population where anime art and Japanese culture are so incredibly popular. I think this is a rarely considered aspect in the developing sexuality of autistic youngsters and how this can be impacted by gender ambiguous influences popular in autistic subculture.

@WhereYouLeftIt

"So, I'm here to listen."

Really? Looks to me that you're here to collect screenshots.

This.

Very, very important points, diverze.

Is that you, DD?

If so, you know I love X. You also know that I don’t think X has somehow become a boy. Why would I?

@Biscuitsanddoombar

Or even uses the term intersex sunset

Someone as well informed & ‘kind’ as the OP should surely know the correct term is DSD

Yuh-huh!

for you Diverze
I too know lots of female autistic teens. There is significant proportion of them now identifying as trans.

Showing all the @borandukht posts on this thread. Found 1.

I have some questions and answers for OP too but I think I'll wait and see how she addresses all the many points already made first.

@Diverze you made a really important point. Thank you.

This should be raised with the wider public. I’m ashamed to say that it wasn’t something that I’d ever thought before.

It’s obvious to me that @borandukht is only using this thread out of boredom / research / to troll/ to sell which makes me angry. However, your post makes this thread worth while.

I know this thread will get taken down but I’m glad I’ve read your post.

That thread became hilarious EdgeOfACoin, when TheBuffster and queenofknives started terfing up the lyrics to songs and musicals

@PennineSpring

Hi OP and OPs mum

DD14 plays football. At the last training session before Xmas her coach thought it would be great () for the girls team to play against the boys team. They played for 10 minutes. The score was 26-0 to the boys and the girls has the 2 adult coaches playing for them.
Why would that be, OP?

What a d*

Oh I love a goady thread. I'm just going to go and get myself a coffee and then I'll sit down to read it.

But before I do I'm just going to take a guess that if the OP reappears for any subsequent posts it will be to tell us that we're dried up old hags and young people all think we're pathetic, they can't wait to have sex offenders in their changing rooms because it's kind, and there's nothing they like better than being choked to the verge of losing consciousness. And if anyone disagrees with any of that they aren't supportive of women.

@yourhairiswinterfire

That thread became hilarious EdgeOfACoin, when TheBuffster and queenofknives started terfing up the lyrics to songs and musicals

Yes, it became very festive!!

My view is that sex is predominantly binary, with notable exceptions. Intersex people are intersex

People with DSD are still binary! There are only 2 sexes.

Don't forget the "you'reall middle aged, white and right wing with links to US religious extremists" accusation wellthatsunusual.