I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

Hi OP and OPs mum

DD14 plays football. At the last training session before Xmas her coach thought it would be great () for the girls team to play against the boys team. They played for 10 minutes. The score was 26-0 to the boys and the girls has the 2 adult coaches playing for them.
Why would that be, OP?

Sex is the why, gender is the how. Gender is a tool of the patriarchy.

What school of feminism discounts women's lived experience, has decided sex is suddenly too difficult to understand and therefore must be irrelevant?

www.mcclatchydc.com/news/investigations/article247999560.html

www.which.co.uk/news/2020/12/seven-ways-married-women-can-beat-the-186000-pension-savings-gap/

www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20201221/women-less-likely-to-survive-out-of-hospital-cardiac-arrest

www.theguardian.com/books/2010/aug/19/women-slavery-half-the-sky

www.bbc.com/news/world-51751915

@midgebabe

Little miss moggy

Just want to pick you up on the use of the term CIs women which you used
( cis women have different experience to transwomen)

The truth is that all women , independent of their gender identity experience things that transwomen dont. Please do not assume that all women here have a gender identity that matches their sex , please do not exclude those women from the category of women

For reference I believe some women here do have a gender identity of women, others reject that as oppressive, others have no clear gender identity, others struggle to understand what one is and others ( myself) would say if pushed that it is male or none binary ( i felt male as a child but had that driven out by society inability to see past my sex )

Ah yes, i would have included all women there. Apologies.

Still waiting for the engagement.

Oh and by the way, once you centre males (however they identify) in your feminism, you are NOT a feminist.

Indeed -
OP define feminist - (clue is in the name - it centres on females).

Have you ever read a biology book?

you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian.

What's the misinformation you're concerned about? And what's the 'repugnant transphobia'? Your example of someone saying the DM is more feminist than the Guardian doesn't really sound transphobic to me.

Generally I think women on this board tend to believe that males and females should be free to do what they want, wear what they want, identify as they choose and live their best lives free from harm.

But of course there are natural limits to that when it comes to sports, prisons, medicine, sexual relationships and so on, because we are different sexes with different biology and body types. There are some situations where biological sex is important or significant and we shouldn't just pretend it doesn't matter. Then there are other situations where it really doesn't matter, and we shouldn't pretend it does. I don't find that particularly hard to understand - it's what feminists and liberal-minded people have long believed. I wonder why you find it incomprehensible?

Stay strong OPs mum, if you are real!

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?

A woman is murdered every 8min- only very rarely is it another woman doing the killing. Why do we have single sex spaces in the first place? Because women are at risk from men. Trans women say they aren't safe in male only spaces but can't see that by making women only spaces 'mixed' sex they take away that safety for everyone. It doesn't take much digging to find the hundreds of examples of 'trans' women who are a danger to women.

1. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?

Intersex is not trans. Intersex is a medical condition that has absolutely nothing to do with the trans movement, the intersex community does not appreciate being dragged into the trans debate as some kind of gotcha. Again it doesn't take much research to discover this and maybe you should look at a few true intersex people on Twitter and the web to find out just how insulting it is for them to be considered under the trans umbrella. Intersex has been co opted by the LBGTQ rubbish. They don't want to be there and should be left out of the debate as it's just rude to them.

1. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

Woman is a biological definition not a feeling.

I think you would benefit from researching autoginophillia AGP - it is very hard to see the trans debate in a positive light. The vast majority of trans activists are quite obviously AGP.

The statistics regarding 'teen' trans make for depressing reading with autistic girls being in high numbers.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can.

@midgebabe

Why are we waiting ...

Bait, innit!?!

Waiting for one of us nasty feminists to trip up and say something nasty so they can plaster it over social media.

Think I'll go out to play now, in easily bored

Ah the arrogance of youth! "Gravely misinformed" - do you really think we don't know any transpeople?

I know quite a few, most of whom are quiet getting on with their lives without trying to barge into women's spaces or make women uncomfortable. It's the TRAs women have an issue with, not trans people in general.

11am OP posts encouraging discussion. 1pm no further word from OP.

How very fucking predictable. Do you think you are the first to use this tactic? God knows you won't be the last.

Tiresome and immature.

Gosh I thought you wanted to engage with this op. No?

HUGE eye roll.....

👋 hi ops mum.
Stay strong 💪

A young woman feels gender dysphoric. That's hard. Should we consider it a medical condition? A true identity that should not need to be certified by a doctor? If she decides to identify as male, should she need to present as male? Shop from the men's department? Change her name? Have surgery (should the NHS fund this)? No, of course those should be her choice, not something society expects of a young trans man. And as those things are all bound up in gender stereotypes, or outdated ideas about what it means to be a man, she could perfectly well dress any way she pleases, wear her hair any way she pleases, have any cosmetic procedures she wishes, use the pronouns she wishes. How should men feel if this person (the switch in changing pronouns inhibits clear expression, sorry) changes his name (or doesn't) dons a pair of chinos from the men's department (or doesn't) and then the same day enters the mens bathroom, the mens mental health group which was set up to address male experience of mental health, the mens rugby team, the all boys school, if he commits a crime be placed in a male prison. If some men have negative feelings about the trans man's presence is that OK or understandable? If they question what their right is to enter all male spaces and make some men uncomfortable is that OK? If men complain about a trans man harassing them for instance by staring at them in their changing space should they be listened to or accused of transphobia? For what reasons do we have single sex spaces and if we have self identification does that essentially mean no single sex spaces.

When OP does come back, if she does, it will be some combination of

• I was busy, I have a life, unlike you saddoes!
• oh my god pile on, I can’t possibly answer
• will pick some utterly obscure point and focus on that rather than the substantive issues
• will claim a bazillion PMs from people who think she’s right but are too scared to speak up

Looks like it’s just a drive by goading though. Well done OP, I guess you showed us! Haven’t we all danced to your tune just like you hoped? Did you get the screenshots you wanted?

This says it all for me:
"There will be no hate, nothing like that"

Why would you hate random people on the internet because they have different viewpoints to you? That's what the TRAs do on Twitter OP and what has created the need for these kind of forums for women in the first place. I hope you don't go down that (almost exclusively male) route OP. It's toxic masculinity and a large part of why GC women would just like everyone to be themselves - whatever kind of human male or female they are, without trying to fit into ridiculous gender stereotypes about how women or men are supposed to behave.

I am not anti-Trans.
I feel very strongly that Transwomen and Transmen should be able to live their lives free from discrimination and abuse, with access to a full range of human rights.

As Transwomen.

They define themselves by gender. That’s fine.
I define myself by my female sex (and other things). But am apparently deserving of vilification for that.

Biological males are granted gender protections while sex oppression is openly scorned.

The old model of Transwomen living their lives and being officially living as Transsexual women was one thing and supported many high profile people who were accepted for who they are / were: Jan Morris, Adele from Fascinating Aida, etc as well as countless people getting on with ordinary lives: the woman who had transitioned who lives in our road and was as welcomed as a Mum as she had been as a Dad, for example.

But Self id had 2 important ramifications for me:

1. Anyone could claim identity as a woman, even while still having a full beard and being called Jake, which sadly does enable the tiny number of violent and abusive types like KW and that Canadian. And led to a female rape victim being faced with a person with beard, male clothing and a bulge in their jeans to do a smear test after she specifically requested a woman HCP. She was told this person identified as a woman, so all was fine.
2. It allows men who have lived all their careers as men, with everything that entails, to suddenly identify into awards for women. Including sporting honours.

Sport is run on the basis of our physical bodies. Disabled sports champions do not compete against those with disabilities, in the olympics. Boxing is run on your actual physical weight, not the weight you identify as. TheTrans argument on sport has left women on the lower steps if the podium (cycling) or with smashed facial bones and skulls (Fallon Fox).

And LOL, the whole basis of SDD, or intersex as you call it, is a biological one. That’s the whole point, and as a community they have repeatedly asked to be not annexed into this debate. Caster S has testes and produced the hormones that create superior power, bone and muscle mass. However much personal sympathy I have for her, it is simply not right to compete in women’s sports.

It’s all pretty simple to me.

I spent my life fighting gendered stereotypes and am not prepared now to have my identity defined by them.

@bornatXmastobequiet

Still waiting for the engagement.

I wouldn’t hold your breath!

@borandukht has probably gone to submit her/ his article/ essay/ blog.

@borandukht Reported for you my lovely - what’s your word count up to? Can you submit virtually? 😜

Ah well. Great thread. Some fantastic well made points. And you've clearly floored the OP 🤣😆

Nobody describes themselves as young. Everyone regardless of age considers themselves average, because their friends are that age too.

When I actually was young I would never have called myself young.

Which is why I'm deeply cynical about any post on here from the self proclaimed 'young'.

For one who wanted a discussion you are surprisingly quiet.

For a seemingly first time poster you have an awful lot to say for yourself.

For a young feminist you have fallen an awful long way from your mummy’s tree.

She can probably answer your questions.

@pinbinpin

Stay strong OPs mum, if you are real!

OP will have a mum. It's one of the few things in life we can be certain of - we all have a mum, we all came out of that mum's body.

The process of this coming out of the mum's body is really quite memorable for most women, and does concentrate the mind on what is meant by 'sex' and 'gender'. I think is probably why when Eddie Izzard says he's now in 'girl mode', so many mums roll their eyes.