I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

I have never understood why being younger is supposed (by the young) to mean being wiser and more experienced

When you're young you are only responsible for yourself - so lots of time to ponder things and to believe you have pondered enough to know best.
Once you have a full time job, maybe DCs, maybe large mortgage, bills to pay etc etc there is less time to ponder and pontificate. Obviously dealing with 'life' means you are most probably much more informed but you don't have the time or inclination to spout it......... and others your age, also busy like you, dont' have the patience to listen and argue.

But I find this comment from the OP a unnerving - What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper
So newspapers are toilet paper - really, all newspapers? What I like about the internet is that I can skim the front pages of NYT, France24, The Times, The Local de (german) - just to see if I am missing something - often there is interesting stuff the UK misses. But obviously I am missing the genuine info on Insta and Fb.

I once came cross a youngish woman and her friend taking a walk along the promenade. She was pushing a pram with a very young baby. I was giving out leaflets about a WPUK meeting that was being held the following week. She did not even look at any of the blurb, she just saw WPUK and declared that " being a woman is all in the mind", as she thrust the leaflet back at me."Being a woman is in the body", I countered. "You've just had a baby for goodness sake".

I imagined that one day, some time further into motherhood and the constraints of childcare, she would come to the same conclusion.

Oh dear. I remember my own unshakeable beliefs at that age! But to be fair, I wasn’t opposing women’s right to single-sex spaces or demanding that men be allowed to compete in women’s sports

Transhumanism is an ideal that seems to appeals to many these days. The idea that we can rise above our earthly body and its constraints and be 'more' than. Transgenderism could, perhaps, be seen to align with this kind of belief. that being free of the definitions of the body means liberation and progression.

At that age it was all anti apartheid and boycotting nestle... what the hell is it now?

@ThatIsNotMyUsername

At that age it was all anti apartheid and boycotting nestle... what the hell is it now?

For us it was anti-materialism, love and peace towards all, resisting the establishment. Dropping out of "the corrupt system", going back to the land, growing our own food, cooking on an open fire. My best friend delivered a baby (her second) in the jungle, with her husband the only assistant, no midwife or doctor in reachable distance.

Real life soon caught up with them. They later moved to New York City and got jobs. She became a cleaner for rich women.

As for me, after a few years of hippiedom I led a very ordinary life, with mortgages, children, insurance, debt, the whole shebang!

But how idealistic, harmless, dreamy-eyed our goals were, though!

OP, if you're still around, some advice from one young person to another (you mention lecturers so I'm assuming you're of typical uni student age, making me somewhere between 5 and 10 years older than you) - don't write off middle-aged women just because you think they're past it. They have lived a lot of life, most likely experienced a lot of sexism in various ways, and may even have fought to secure a lot of what you take for granted. Just because they're maybe a bit frumpy and have a few greys (yes, I'm being cheeky), doesn't mean they can't think for themselves and are wrong about everything. I've learnt and grown a lot by making friends with women of all ages in recent years and it's fantastic to hear a variety of views before just writing people off, especially if you're writing them off based on what OTHER people are saying about their views. Approach things with an open mind. Don't be hostile. Try not to assume your view is the 'correct' one.

Have a talk with your mum. Both of you. Sit down, spare some time, try to keep talking even if you bristle at certain things. Make her listen to your points too. Don't go into it assuming she's a complete dumbass. After all, she raised you and you're one of the most intelligent people out there, right? Perhaps she's not all bad.

Also, I'm not going to claim my mum is an absolute oracle who is right all the time, but there have been several times in the last few years that I've had to call her up and give credit where credit is due, being all 'god damn it, you were right' and she usually replies 'I know' as if she's been waiting for this moment for years
Kinda hoping you might be making a few similar calls before your twenties are up, but who can say?

I think having to come to terms with earthly reality and the limits of life, in a body, on the earth, is something many struggle with. Acceptance of limitation and boundaries, however, is often the path to true contentment, and achievement. We are not immortal, transcendent beings; we are creatures of earth and as such we follow the same pattern & path as any other creature of earth.

We can, of course, make modifications. But that is all it amounts to....and some of those modifications and meddling also bring with them ethical questions and dilemmas.

The thrust of youth is towards expansion and the testing and stretching of boundaries; whereas the the thrust of maturity and then older age is first, towards stability and consolidation, and then towards contraction.

I remember thinking I knew everything I’d ever need to know by the time I was about 17.

What a tosspot I was 🤣

Grew up pretty quick when my mum died (was in my early 20s) and have spent the last 25 years or so slowly realising how little I actually know about anything.

Some things I’m absolutely sure of though, is only female mammals have babies and humans cannot change sex (no matter how sincere the desire to do so is). Oh, and fast men run faster than fast women.

The utter disdain for anyone who doesn't look 'right' (by some set standard apparently) who's body no longer looks 'right' because youth is perfection and anything beyond that is out of date and disgusting, whoever is not part of the utter thrill of insta/whatever the current shallow screen obsessed celeb filled junk...

ffs, the cognitive dissonance of wittering on about kindness and inclusion and ending class divide and blah blah blah while at the same time being in the utter grip of consumerist teenaged cool kid and excluding, looking down on and being thoroughly rude and unpleasant to anyone not of the 'right' kind?

As an old, saggy, grey, past it frump, I'll tell you straight love. The time will come where you no longer give a fuck for whether you're 'cool' enough to fit in, and have to be sure you look right and wear the right things and say the right things and conform enough not to be singled out and jeered at. And you'll look at the kids still stuck in that mess, and think bloody hell, how boring and sad all that is.

There is life beyond instagram. Trust me on this. There is. And when you've turned into one of these people you seem to think ought to be put down out of their misery rather than being a millstone around the neck of the cool kids, (who incidentally seem to have the worst mental health of any generation in history, so this coolness doesn't seem exactly fun, or good for anyone really) you will see life a bit differently.

When, for pete's sake, did the 'rage against the establishment' stage turn into being ageist, sexist, homophobic and keeping up with the Joneses? It's a cross between an endless wet lunchtime at a secondary school where the cool girls jeer at other girls for wearing the wrong skirts and Margot Ledbetter fretting night and day about what the neighbours think and does she have the right curtains .

Is there really nothing more exciting and fun and enjoyable about youth these days?

This generation/movement will look back and cry for what they have done.

In fact the sum of all the above seems to come down to when did the height of cool youth become behaving like the stereotypical wife of a member of the Conservative Party from the late 70s?

Weird frocks and lumpy fabric wallpaper ahoy.

@Wandawomble

OP’s mum deserves a drink.

Sounds like OP's mother had far to many drinks for the good of the baby.

Blame the mum for the idiocy of the child eh?

'But I find this comment from the OP a unnerving - What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper
So newspapers are toilet paper - really, all newspapers? '

I raised an eyebrow at this too. As if newspapers aren't a collective of qualified and experienced journalists. Yes they all have an editor who takes the paper in the direction they're expected to, but I doubt OP even knows the names of the editors of the DM and the Guardian, let alone why their newspapers are 'toilet paper.'

If you're still reading this OP, the way to form opinions of your own (rather than those you've been told to have by your friends, for example) is to read the papers, all of them, even the 'toilet paper' ones. Think about the content, think about why this writer takes this or that angle on certain issues, come to your own conclusions. It's how you gain insight, something you should have done if you have read and digested this thread properly, and something your lecturers will hopefully encourage you to do too.

There is life beyond instagram. Trust me on this. There is. And when you've turned into one of these people you seem to think ought to be put down out of their misery rather than being a millstone around the neck of the cool kids, (who incidentally seem to have the worst mental health of any generation in history, so this coolness doesn't seem exactly fun, or good for anyone really) you will see life a bit differently.

Michelle:
As someone who backpacked and lived rough and off-grid for years through, and in, two non-first-world continents, and raised two children into pretty decent human adults, yet who now lives a very withdrawn life, I often have to roll my eyes at the exalted self-perception of kids who spend their lives staring at their phones!

I admit I can't type into a phone as fast as they can, and am perplexed by some things my laptop demands of me. But I don't spill tears over such inadequacies...

Its a fascinating juxtaposition isn't it?

Be your authentic self! (But fgs be the right kind of authentic self, who does and says all the right things!)

Have no boundaries, no taboos, kinks and wildness and freedom is in! (But fgs, make sure its the right kind of wildness in which you do and say the right things and don't breach any boundaries into the wrong kind of person )

Include everybody! Kindness and love and welcome to all! (Except of course the old, the ones who look wrong, the ones who aren't the right kind of person with the right views, who read the right papers and make the right noises to virtue signal about i am one of the acceptable ones, I don't read that, I do believe this, like me please!)

It's tragic. The total lack of self awareness that this is extreme end conservatism and anything but free, or kind, or progressive, or inclusive, or having anything but an endless tightrope walk between getting to be one of the incrowd who do the looking down on and a terror of becoming one of those being illtreated for getting it wrong?

Authentic self my left elbow.

Totally agree @MichelleofzeResistance it must be very stressful being just one misspoken word away from being ostracised. In an endless purity spiral.

Sounds like OP is willfully living in an echo chamber. Most people acknowledge the mail etc are biased, however, especially in the current climate when strategies are 'leaked' to the papers before they become law it's important to read them, especially if you have strong views, as you should actually know the opposing view.
Interestingly enough, around 2 years ago when butterfly was on television, DH and I thought it was really progressive. A woman at work commented that her friend in mental health was alarmed at the 'trend' of kids wanting to change their bodies seemed to be rising in place of anorexia. I wasn't convinced at the time as still thought it was a benign fringe. Although I said to DH at the time I'd be interested to see if the child in butterfly would have wanted to transition if society wasn't steeped in gender stereotypes. It took a little while later when jk Rowling wrote her essay I realised it just isn't as simple as the woke crowd would have us believe.
Having looked at all sides I now come down as firmly GC. It just shows it's important to consider all sides, toilet paper or not!

Transhumanism is an ideal that seems to appeals to many these days. The idea that we can rise above our earthly body and its constraints and be 'more' than. Transgenderism could, perhaps, be seen to align with this kind of belief. that being free of the definitions of the body means liberation and progression.

This makes sense when looking at why younger people seem to be so in favour of this movement. It's about transformation and not being restricted by bodily constraints. But they're not realising that ultimately it's a fantasy and they're also ignoring the damage it's doing to vulnerable people, particularly children.

We also now seem to have a generation of children who are growing up with the belief that it's possible to change sex. Is this poor education or too much living in fantasy worlds online?

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?

Because transwomen have the same offending patterns as men. Karen White attacked vulnerable women in a MH setting and in a women's prison, one attack by a 'trans woman' is one too many.

2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?

Intersex women are woman with a medical condition.

3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

Caster Semenya has entered a traditional marriage as a man and has fathered a child, to me that means Caster is a man.

Additionally there is no way to tell if someone is trans or they are a man with a fetish. I have no problem with a fetish as long as it is consenting adults, I do not consent to being part of a man's fetish.

Michelle, that was brilliantly put. It sounds absolutely exhausting.

I think that they somehow must know that it all is a house of cards. I wonder where all this dependency on external validation is coming from?

There also seem to be so many groups who take all information and opinions from their own social media feed and get terribly flustered when they are faced with facts which do not appear there (probably because they are inconvenient). Some seem convinced that if they keep repeating the right lines, we will all give up and fall into line. It is like the concept of independent thought, fact sourcing and conclusions are alien to them.

I wonder if that is why they think that everyone on this board thinks exactly the same? That we are indoctrinated by our own echo chamber as opposed to a number of women who have searched for facts, thought about them and drawn in many cases similar conclusions and in some different?

Re: Living in fantasy world's online, this will no doubt get worse with young people's lives being almost exclusively online, due to the pandemic. Forums like Twitter as well with character limits also mean ideas and arguments are 'dumbed down' or misrepresented ( Really evident in OP trying to explain the feminist position). Meanwhile opposing voice both cancelled and absent on these forums, so young do conclude that there is no opposing view worth considering.

When, for pete's sake, did the 'rage against the establishment' stage turn into being ageist, sexist, homophobic and keeping up with the Joneses? It's a cross between an endless wet lunchtime at a secondary school where the cool girls jeer at other girls for wearing the wrong skirts and Margot Ledbetter fretting night and day about what the neighbours think and does she have the right curtains.

Youth movements have always been ageist, and have always been about fitting in with the crowd - having the 'right' hairstyles and wearing the 'right' clothes, liking the 'right' music...

The difference with this one is that there are a number of middle aged men who are encouraging it for their own purposes, and this has helped them to capture the establishment. Otherwise it would just be the new version of hippies or punks. But fun and hedonism are distinctly lacking in this movement. As recreational drugs go, puberty blockers and wrong sex hormones are a weird choice.