I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

kareningalasmith.com/2019/10/17/comparing-uk-homicide-perpetration-and-suspect-rates-for-male-female-and-trans-people-april-2007-march-2018/

Here is a simple breakdown for you JJ1968.

This makes it clear why sex is an important distinction when discussing crime statistics

Looks like the OP got absolutely nothing relevant to say and has run away, worst debate ever.

I don't know, but there is clearly a disparity between the number of trans people in jail for serious offences and the very low rate of annual convictions

This could easily be cause by POGD - Prison Onset Gender Dysphoria.

Also JJ1968, you're liar and a rape apologist

transcrimeuk.com/2020-convictions/

This attack was National news at the time. It is as reported as women very violently attacking a young man. Every news channel, tv, radio everywhere. www.thesun.co.uk/news/6618531/eicester-square-underground-station-man-attacked-women-gang-video/
At the eventual trial the accused mentioned they were transwomen. There was no custodial sentence.

Why all this chat about rape?

Let's go further than what jj says. Let's imagine every man on the planet suddenly became incapable of raping. What's that got to do with the logic of suddenly redefining the word woman in law and policy?

Karen White, Chloe Walker, Katie Dolatowski, Carrie Cooper, Marie Dean. I wish I could remember the name of 'the woman who may be wearing men's clothes' who police sought for sexual assaults on two girls. Actually a male person dressed in male-typical clothes. It really isn't difficult to find these cases. Sexual assaults by women however- very rare.

There should be more research into this, out of fairness to everyone.

It takes some nerve to come onto a feminist board and argue that sex offenders, rapists and paedophiles are the subject if discrimination by the judicial system.
Still - when someone shows you who they are we should believe them.

@Bogardicia

Looks like the OP got absolutely nothing relevant to say and has run away, worst debate ever.

OP's mum might have demanded she tidy her room. So unfair. I hate this place. What's for dinner? Can I borrow the car?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8695051/amp/Transvestite-son-said-mother-misery-stabbing-sword-court-heard.html

Horrific matricide conviction 2020 - by a perpetrator under Stonewall’s trans umbrella.

Let's imagine every man on the planet suddenly became incapable of raping. What's that got to do with the logic of suddenly redefining the word woman in law and policy?

And with refusing women the right to organise by themselves as a sex based group, to have privacy and dignity away from male people when vulnerable, and to have things like sport based on their own sex class?

Rape (as in proven beyond all doubt to the last decimal place with clear evidence that is peer reviewed and acceptable to everyone proving that enough women have been viciously raped to prove that not permitting women sex based spaces is too dangerous for males to permit to happen any longer) is a very, very low bar to set.

Female spaces and privacy and dignity and freedom to organise by group - these things are not in the gift of males to award when they have evidence that satisfies them that in their opinion this subordinate group should have such thing. For a start, this is wholly sex based thinking that makes it clear there are those who get to decide and allocate resources and those who will shut up and take what they're given and think they're lucky. And secondly, it is as sexist and downright male supremacist as hell, because it sees females as less human, less equal than males, and that all resources belong to males who will allocate as they see fit.

I'm not a subhuman male support unit thanks.

@334bu

Given the percentage of transwomen in the UK that 1 would seem to be just about the number of rape convictions you would expect if not a bit high as 1200 is only 0..003% of males in UK while the percentage number of transwomen might be higher

I'm not sure about your figures but that would mean trans women make up around 0.01% of the population of those assigned male at birth. That means there's only around 2700 trans women in the whole of the UK. I think you need to think again.

As I'm sure you know the estimates range from about 0.3%-1%. I used 0.3 in my calculations to show that even at the very lowest estimate of the prevalence of trans women they are not being convicted of rape or sexual assaults at anything close to the same rate as men.

And with refusing women the right to organise by themselves as a sex based group, to have privacy and dignity away from male people when vulnerable, and to have things like sport based on their own sex class?

Oh, forgot the most obvious one: the right to set their own boundaries and say no.

Still waiting for your breakdown of crimes statistics that prove transwomen are not as dangerous as other males. Number of murderers, aggravated violence offenders , rapes, serious sexual assault, sexual assault, voyeurism, exposure of genitals, child abuse, child sexual abuse , child pornography offences etc. MoJ has these statistics so prove your case!

Well yes in this case. Those born physically male but who later self identify as women, or trans women, do not appear to be convicted of serious violent and sexual offences at anywhere near the same rate as those born male who do not go on to transition and identify as women.

Are you sure about that @jj1968?

According to the FPFW figures, there are 46 transwomen in prison for sexual offences, 126 women and 13808 men. Since there are a lot more women than transwomen, we don't have to do any calculations to observe that transwomen, or men who later identify as transwomen commit such offences at a much greater rate than women.

To compare the transwomen vs men figures, we need to know what % of men will identify as a transwoman at some point in their life.

If it's 1%, then the expected figure for transwomen would be about 138, and you would be right that men who don't identify as transwomen are more likely than transwomen to commit such offences.

If it's 0.1%, then the expected figure is about 14, making transwomen about 3 times as likely to commit these offences as men are.

So in order to make a proper comparison we need to know what proportion of men identify as transwomen. Do you know what that figure is jj? Whatever the figure is, it's clear that transwomen are much more likely than women to commit sexual offences.

Fine. Jj. But I don't see why that discrimination means that transmen are men and Twaw.

I don't see why women's rights would help at all. There is nothing in women's rights that would help with that problem

Tackle the real problems for transmen and transwomen

And here’s the other 2020 murder conviction by a male under the Stonewall trans umbrella:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/paul-fitzgerald-paedophile-richard-huckle-4717343.amp

Did the op come back? Do we know what a woman is yet?

I think we know what a woman is but the op needs some help there.

As I'm sure you know the estimates range from about 0.3%-1%. I used 0.3 in my calculations to show that even at the very lowest estimate of the prevalence of trans women they are not being convicted of rape or sexual assaults at anything close to the same rate as men.

I hadn't seen this post when I posted about the number of transwomen convicted of sexual assaults. If transwomen are 0.3% of men, then the expected number of transwomen in prison for sexual offences would be 0.3% of 13808, which is about 41. The actual figure is slightly higher at 46.

I think from this we can conclude that transwomen are convicted of sexual offences at approximately the same rate as men. Thanks for confirming that @jj1968.

failing their execution of course

Fortunately, the UK is a civilised nation, and got rid of the death penalty (State-sanctioned murder) some 50 years ago.

I don’t think there has ever been any doubt as to what a woman is. Every woman knows it. Feels it. Doesn’t feel the need to express it for it is innate.

The people who seem to have a problem explaining it and fall over themselves trying to justify or quantify it are men.

Girl mode ✌🏼

I feel a little embarrassed for the OP. She's had a proper ass-whooping on here.

@bellinisurge

And what the heck is "bottom surgery ". Making another hole doesn't make you a woman.

This is it, it's as if some people (even so called 'feminists') believe that having a hole is what makes us women. It's so offensive and obviously completely wrong. A vagina isn't just a hole, the people who say these things make me sick.

I think from this we can conclude that transwomen are convicted of sexual offences at approximately the same rate as men. Thanks for confirming that @jj1968.

Yes, very good of you.