I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

However, if, theoretically Huntley did transition (and there isn't really any reason to think he wouldn't more than any other male is there?) then, according to the like of Lisa Nandy and Co, he should be housed in the prison of the gender he identifies with. That's what she has publicly stated - that rapists who have raped with a penis, should be allowed in female prisons if that's what they want.

So it doesn't really matter if its Ian Huntley or any other criminal really does it?

And that's exactly what many transactivists said, because they also bought into that story.

@PicsInRed

I've gained a new found respect for her for being on this site every day, after about five hours as a member I've wanted to blow my brains out about four times

How terribly dramatic. Are you quite alright? Normally women don't speak like this. Very unusual.

Agree.

You sound like a minor OP? Maybe best to leave Mumsnet to the grownups?

The whole premise is based on denying biology. The problem is that people cannot believe something which is blatantly false. Even the majority who say they do don't really think a penis is a female organ or that humans can change sex just by saying so.

The study I posted upthread showed that around a third of long term women prisoners in the states are lesbian or bisexual and that LGB people are more likely then straight people to be in jail for a sexual offence.

Why is "in the states" relevant to the U.K.? We are a different country with a different criminal justice system.

1. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

A woman is an adult human female. This is a person whose primary sexual characteristics support the production of big rather than little gametes. It is not necessary that a woman avail herself of her reproductive potential, or that she have a complete or fully-functioning set of reproductive equipment.

A male who has had bottom surgery is not a woman, because that male does not have primary sexual characteristics that make big gametes. That is a merely cosmetic change to the external genitalia.

Chromosomes can be red herring, due to certain genetic abnormalities (so-called "disorders" of sexual development). But most people with such conditions can be classified as male or female.

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?

Because the logical endpoint of (the more extreme strands of) trans ideology is the abolition of sex-based rights.

As noted above, I believe a woman is an adult human female - and I am yet to hear a better definition of "woman". I have found that those who believe that TWAW tend to define "woman" by reference to (1) gender / sex-based stereotypes or (2) an innate "feeling". My view is that the first is unsatisfactory due to being regressive, and the second is unsatisfactory as it is no definition at all - it makes a woman subjective, inchoate and boundless.

The thing that women have in common is biology, and as a consequence of biology, various shared social, cultural and economic experiences.

1. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?

As noted above, most people with disorders of sexual development can be classified as male or female.

I also understand, however, that many such individuals have asked not to be used to support the trans cause; and I tend to agree that they do not provide some "gotcha" argument about sex being fluid or on a spectrum.

I'd be keen to hear how you define woman, @borandukht, as I also want to see the TWAW view presented at its highest.

There was a very good study about the increase in sexual violence since Target introduced gender inclusion policies.

@WanderingHopefully has already given a link, but here is the study in detail: womanmeanssomething.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/A-Longitudinal-Analysis-of-Media-Reports-at-Target-Stores.pdf

I have a friend who is a barman. Last year at work he walked past a very drunk man in the corridor, looking shifty and about to go into the ladies toilets. He pointed him in the other direction. Swaying and squinting, the drunk man said, 'Fuck off mate, I identify as a woman innit', and walked in anyway. The man was a regular, had never expressed any trans leanings, and that's without mentioning the fact he had a very full beard and was dressed completely 'as a man'.

Even in his drunk state, he knew he could walk straight into the ladies and make women uncomfortable just by exploiting this pressure to be 'PC'. How do you propose we keep women safe?

When it all kicked off here about M&S moving to single sex changing rooms 'wherever customers feel most comfortable', I said that the safest place for me as a woman would actually be for me to change in the men's. This is because all the creeps with ill intentions would flock to the ladies; and I can tell you with 100% certainty that any 'cis man' simply looking for a new pair of trousers would absolutely be in the men's and not the women's. They would think it 'weird' to do otherwise.

You wouldn't walk down a dark alley late at night because the likelihood is it wouldn't be safe. There might be a mugger, drug addict or rapist around any corner. Allowing anyone to simply identify as a woman and walk into women's spaces is turning those safe spaces into dark alleys.

Even in his drunk state, he knew he could walk straight into the ladies and make women uncomfortable just by exploiting this pressure to be 'PC'. How do you propose we keep women safe?

Indeed.

OPs posts summarised for those just joining.
Transwomen don't offend at the same rate as men (lie).
Supports transwomen in sports because it's a level playing field hormones blah blah (lie).
Some rambling rubbish about turning people away from refuges (, incoherent but probably lie).
It's so exhausting being on Mumsnet (leave then?)
Did I miss anything?
Not the reasoned debate promised. If I was your lecturer I would hang my head in shame.
Mum sounds great though 👍.
I like to think she exists.

Well, if you look at the statistics, areas that have allowed for de facto/de iure self-id access to single-sex spaces have not seen a spike in sex assaults or rapes of any kind. In addition, according to an FOI request, there have been zero assaults or rapes by transgender prisoners of cisgender women in single sex prisons.

Bit confused as to your definition of ‘single sex’?
Transwomen are Male, so a transwoman in prison designated as part of the female estate isn’t actually single sex.

The moment you allow a male person into a female only space it’s no longer female only.

Do you think female spaces are no longer necessary OP? And if so, do you believe that to be true globally or only in the western world?

Many countries are still fighting for single sex spaces, because they believe that female people need them for privacy, dignity and safety.

Are they wrong?
And if they aren’t, how do you justify this difference between the developing and first worlds?

Because if black and brown women deserve single sex spaces and white women don’t, is that because you believe black and brown men are more dangerous than white men? And if so, how can you explain that and not be racist?

PS, Karen White was convicted of sexual assault against female prisoners in a female prison - what FOI managed to ignore that actual criminal conviction? Because it seems to me that your info is inaccurate.

@viques

Brava (post-encore bouquets)

@334bu

I see we have moved from the not " real" transwomen to the " predatory" lesbian.

Not at all. Merely pointing out that assuming inherent levels of criminality amongst marginalised groups based on prison populations is not just incorrect but gives a licence to racists and homophobes to do the same. So if the far right decided to pursue this strategy, which they have before, what have you got to say to them. They're only doing what you did to trans people. If they are bigots for doing it then so are you surely?

It was revealed to be a hoax about Huntley. But before that revelation, a surprising amout of people leapt to his defence as a putative member of the trans community. Even though he was famous for murdering two ten year old girls.

Don't believe me? Check out the reporting and comments about 'Nicole', who is in prison for raping a ten year old girl repeatedly.

Gushing report just last week about this prisoner getting surgery: www.lgbtqnation.com/2020/12/judge-rules-prison-allow-trans-inmate-seek-gender-affirming-surgery/?fbclid=IwAR1_wapGMnK-YVhjiaQGRKlExdnTVcHtmHVXMQccjxC3gZNsImwY_gD-lqs

Comments on facebook (check out the number of hug and like reacts): m.facebook.com/story/graphql_permalink/?graphql_id=UzpfSTE2MjI0NTE5MTcxNjoxMDE1Nzg1MDYzNjY1MTcxNw%3D%3D

Information already in the public domain about what 'Nicole' did to Nicole's very own daughter: www.womenarehuman.com/rape-of-10-year-old-by-her-transgender-dad-nearly-drove-her-to-suicide-mark-nicole-rose-campbell/

And people are happy to see this person in a women's prison.

Marginalised groups is a hilarious description for transwomen, although I would concede that transmen would be what I would consider a marginalised group.

There has never been a group in history who are more privileged than transwomen. They make demands and those demands are met, immediately, and without question. All within a few years. It took women hundreds of years to even be allowed to vote and another 60 years after that to be able to expect equal pay in the UK. Transwomen demanded that the entire English language be changed to meet their demands and, just like that, the demand was met.

Now we have the right wing extremists!!!!!

What we haven't had is any evidence that transwomen are less dangerous to females than other males.!!!! Surely there must be evidence in crime statistics?????

So jj are you saying that trans people suffer discrimination in the legal process?

See that's an interesting thought, one that could be the basis for new rights for trans people

If you could focus on issues rather than trying to bully women you could have such a huge amount of support

New rights, not women's rights

I have gone back to the original post and there is one giant clue that @borandukht does not do their own research and just sucks up the fake news.

Borand tells us she has read neither the Daily Mail nor The Guardian. Never ever. Yet Borand tells us that opinions expressed on here about those papers are so wildly incorrect that yesterday she snapped. How the fuck would borand know if those posters were right or wrong? By her own admission she's read neither. Yet she snapped and came over to sort us out. FFS.

This is why the USA is in such a state. People like OP will base arguments on fake news while stating openly, proudly, that they do not check sources. Probably why they are so religious and have such a shite environment for women and their ethnic minorities. Too much follow the latest charismatic toothy leader and not enough reality checking. You can see why they have the problems they have.

Merely pointing out that assuming inherent levels of criminality amongst marginalised groups based on prison populations

What is your point, jj1968? Do you believe all the transwomen in prison were unjustly convicted? Or that they commit more crime because of adverse social circumstances?

@testing987654321

I do think it's a bit irrelevant to the question of whether feminists should believe men can become women and whether men should be in women's spaces.

My male partner is lovely, he still shouldn't be in women's spaces.

Men cannot become women.

This bears repeating. Arguing over crime statistics misses the point by a mile.

Transwomen are male and for that reason they should use male facilities.

That's it.

JJ1968

Not at all. Merely pointing out that assuming inherent levels of criminality amongst marginalised groups based on prison populations is not just incorrect but gives a licence to racists and homophobes to do the same. So if the far right decided to pursue this strategy, which they have before, what have you got to say to them. They're only doing what you did to trans people. If they are bigots for doing it then so are you surely?

Black women are female. Lesbians are female. Trans women are male.

All females are vulnerable to males because of their male biology. Bigger. Stronger. Faster. Ability to rape and impregnate. This is why females deserve and demand safe spaces.

The pattern of offending of black women or lesbians or any other marginalised group of women is irrelevant to where they should be housed because they are biologically the same as any other woman.

The pattern of crime is relevant for trans women because females are vulnerable due to their inescapable biology.

Women are not put on this planet to valid men's feelings.

@334bu

Now we have the right wing extremists!!!!!

What we haven't had is any evidence that transwomen are less dangerous to females than other males.!!!! Surely there must be evidence in crime statistics?????

You have had evidence. Only one self identified trans woman has been convicted of rape in the last five years compared to around 12,000 men. That is overwhelming evidence of a huge disparity in offending patterns. The truth is I suspect there is no evidence on earth that would convince you that you are wrong. And thats a shame. Because you are wrong.

JJ1968

You have had evidence. Only one self identified trans woman has been convicted of rape in the last five years compared to around 12,000 men. That is overwhelming evidence of a huge disparity in offending patterns. The truth is I suspect there is no evidence on earth that would convince you that you are wrong. And thats a shame. Because you are wrong.

And you are ignoring the fact that, even if this was true, if self ID becomes as commonplace as you wish it to, nothing is stopping those 12,000 men demanding access to female prisons just as you are!

Women don’t identify as black after being convicted, whereas a statistically significant number of men do identify as women when incarcerated.

Hardly a comparable situation.

So jj are you saying that trans people suffer discrimination in the legal process?

I don't know, but there is clearly a disparity between the number of trans people in jail for serious offences and the very low rate of annual convictions. The US study I posted suggested that one reason LGB people are so over-represented in prisons is that they tend to be given longer sentences than straight people for the same crimes. I think it's possible that could apply to trans people as well and think it would be an important area of research.

One thing that has been observed is that it actually takes very little prejudice within the criminal justice system to end up with very wide disparities in outcomes because the impact is magnified at each stag, beginning with economic marginalisation and then is someone from a marginalised group more likely to be reported for a crime, arrested for it, charged with it, found guilty for it, or then given a longer sentence for it. It only takes a little bit of bias at each stage for large results to emerge in prison populations.

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother

God it is so bloody annoying when women don't hold the opinions you tell them to hold isn't it?

Maybe your mum will buy you this colouring book if you ask nicely.

Given the percentage of transwomen in the UK that 1 would seem to be just about the number of rape convictions you would expect if not a bit high as 1200 is only 0..003% of males in UK while the percentage number of transwomen might be higher