I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

I feel a little embarrassed for the OP. She's had a proper ass-whooping on here.

Not the first, won't be the last.

at the snotty nosed OP coming along and demanding we defend gender critical feminism to her. GC has been a founding theory of feminism since I was at college 20 years ago and many, many years before that. GC feminism didn't just spring out of mid air when the T was added to LGBT. It was never about trans people at all, and it still isn't. Gender critical feminism is about dismantling expected gender roles and by doing so, weakening the patriarchy and the barriers it has built against women.

Some people campaigning on behalf of the trans community want to strengthen gender roles. How, as a feminist, can you ever stand by agreeing with this?

They've got you putting the rights of men (male bodied people) before women OP. You're willing to give up women's safe spaces, to push gender roles onto women harder than ever before. Dismantling years of the work of feminists and worse yet - because even before the suffragettes women were at least revered for their ability to bring life. Not any more though, we don't even have that now. We have to pretend that men can have periods and get pregnant and give life too. Well sorry - I won't be doing that.

Maybe instead of coming here and trying to patronise us, you could try opening a book about feminism.

@laudemio

Did the op come back? Do we know what a woman is yet?

I think to the OP a woman is an inconvenience

I had this discussion with my feminist daughter. Luckily she read the information provided and actually thought about the issues involved. She realised that the people commenting here aren't transphobic at all, but trying to protect the hard fought rights of women, and, actually, many of us (myself included) do have TW as friends, discuss the issues with them and look at how we can have fair and equal rights for all people

There has never been a group in history who are more privileged than transwomen. They make demands and those demands are met, immediately, and without question. All within a few years. It took women hundreds of years to even be allowed to vote and another 60 years after that to be able to expect equal pay in the UK. Transwomen demanded that the entire English language be changed to meet their demands and, just like that, the demand was met.

This.

So 0.3- 1% of the population produce 46 sex offenders but the 51% of the population which is female only produces 124 quite a disparity. Wonder which group is more dangerous and why??? Could it possibly be the ones that are male?? Also of the 124 is it possible that some of them might not actually be female?????

@HidingFromDD

I had this discussion with my feminist daughter. Luckily she read the information provided and actually thought about the issues involved. She realised that the people commenting here aren't transphobic at all, but trying to protect the hard fought rights of women, and, actually, many of us (myself included) do have TW as friends, discuss the issues with them and look at how we can have fair and equal rights for all people

Yes. A trans person I know (female to male) says trans rights should be about adding, not taking away.

Surprising isn't it Wellthatsunusual (it's not surprising at all)

Re mtf transitioners in women's prison - Madilyn Harks has caused plenty of issues in Canada. The problems caused to female prisoners by Madilyn are not discussed in the Canadian press, I gather. However, it's worth watching Meghan Murphy's interview with Heather Mason for an overview of the prison situation there:

Also of the 124 is it possible that some of them might not actually be female?????

I saw someone say, either here or on Twitter: ''When transwomen commit crimes, they're women. But when transwomen are the victims of crime, they're transwomen.''

Convenient, innit.

Presumably you also think that people of colour are inherently more criminal than white people as well, thats what the prison stats say after all. You are using tactics straight out of the far right playbook now.

Are you saying that you think that women commit crime, including crimes of a sexual nature, at the same rate as mtf transitioners but that the legal system (for whatever reason) punishes transitioners more harshly?

The statistics clearly do not show that transwomen have female offending patterns

There may be discrimination in there, which I have said could be worth investigating and fighting against.

However it does nothing for the TWAW argument

Really all this talk of statistics is irrelevant if you can't change sex.

Presumably you also think that people of colour are inherently more criminal than white people as well, thats what the prison stats say after all. You are using tactics straight out of the far right playbook now

There is no such thing as identifying as black JJ, as you well know. Completely different situation, completely different circumstances and attempting to leverage it to suit you makes you seem like the racist here, not us.

@PlantMam

Presumably you also think that people of colour are inherently more criminal than white people as well, thats what the prison stats say after all. You are using tactics straight out of the far right playbook now

There is no such thing as identifying as black JJ, as you well know. Completely different situation, completely different circumstances and attempting to leverage it to suit you makes you seem like the racist here, not us.

Very well said!

Who benefits from allowing males into female spaces? How do females prisoners benefit from allowing male born people into the female estate? How do women benefit from having to share previously single sex spaces with male born people? How do women benefit from facilities becoming mixed sex? How do women benefit from allowing male born people to take part in women's sport? Why are we allowing the wholesale uprooting of established conventions that protect women without debate, discussion and democratic consensus. I know why, because a) it's women b) it doesn't benefit women c) the people agitating for it are banking on no one caring enough until it's too late.

Well now, much of the justification for separation of Male and female in many situations is predicated on differences in behaviour between the sexes

If you could show that the behaviour differences were none existent it would change the conversation
Note here that by behaviour differences I mean more than just offending rates, but also more general sexual harresment

As an example, years ago, white women felt very uncomfortable being in changjng rooms with black people. And black people are disproportionately represented in prison. However Since it can be shown that the feeling of uncomfortableness was not driven by any rational difference and purely by an unjustified fear, the same fear that leads to the prison population problem, segregation isn't allowed on skin colour

Open minded. But quite aware that there is no evidence to support this position wrt transwomen

As for prisons, the statistics show that trans-women have not committed sex assaults in prison, and don't pose a risk to vulnerable inmates

Why do you keep saying this when many posters have explained that that’s incorrect? Statistics show male pattern offending isn’t affected by transition.

You’ve also confidently claimed trans women on hormones magically have their male puberty benefits disappear and can take part in women’s sports on a level playing field.

Re gender critical. Personally I think gender and gender identity are a load of outdated stereotypes that largely disadvantage women (but impact men too). I can’t understand how something so excruciatingly old-fashioned and conservative has become so popular.

The self-congratulatory use of ‘woke speak’ eg “assigned male at birth’ is offensive to me. I have a relative who is intersex. They were indeed assigned a sex at birth, and it really pisses me off that ‘trans’ people have stolen that language and pretend they’re somehow intersex. I’m not including the tiny percentage of people with gender dysphoria in that. I’m talking about the immature teens and their anime avatars and the many ‘queer’ people who are so desperate to be ‘special’.

They’re trivialising being actually trans and causing embarrassment and problems for trans people who just want to live their lives quietly.

Presumably you also think that people of colour are inherently more criminal than white people as well, thats what the prison stats say after all. You are using tactics straight out of the far right playbook now

There have already been a couple of good replies to this, but you seem to have gone off on a bit of a tangent jj.

What have 'people of colour' and 'white people' got to do with comparing one group of males (who are just men) and another group of males (who identify as transwomen)?

All I was saying was that all men, regardless of whether they are just men or identify as transwomen, commit crimes at the same rate.

Are you suggesting that men who identify as transwomen are victimised and convicted of crimes which they didn't commit at a greater rate than other men? Do you have any evidence for this?

Breathe, I think gender identity is a natural thing in a person where gender stereotypes are strongly enforced.

If you don't meet the required stereotype you can either externalise it ....gender is poo...or internalise it...there's something wrong with me as I seem to fit the other box better

To me it indicates something very wrong and rigid in society but it's very real when you experience it

@PlantMam

Presumably you also think that people of colour are inherently more criminal than white people as well, thats what the prison stats say after all. You are using tactics straight out of the far right playbook now

There is no such thing as identifying as black JJ, as you well know. Completely different situation, completely different circumstances and attempting to leverage it to suit you makes you seem like the racist here, not us.

That's not really the point is it. The point is that using prison populations to judge the levels of inherent criminality amongst different groups is not legitimate, and those trying to make it legitimate are empowering racists and homophobes to do the same.

What about when your evangelical friends or the Murdoch press decide to stop pretending to like LGB people and use the study I linked to 'prove' that lesbians and gays are inherently more criminal, and as such shouldn't be allowed to work in schools or whatever other conclusions they choose to draw. How on earth can you object to that when you've been doing the same to trans people. We fought off this kind of lazy and dishonest attempt to foster hatred against minority groups decades ago and here you are trying to bring it back.

The true comparison is with women.

Do mtf transitioners pose a greater or less risk to women than women?

Anything else, while interesting, is a red herring.

JJ
You're ignoring all the posts about why your comparisons to race and sexuality are ridiculous so I'll not bother replying to that again.

One question:

Should trans men be put in male prisons?

All I was saying was that all men, regardless of whether they are just men or identify as transwomen, commit crimes at the same rate.

The US study I posted, based on prison populations, showed that gay men are twice as likely to be in prison than straight men, and are more likely to be in prison for a sexual offence. By your logic this proves that gay men are inherently more criminal than straight men. Twice as criminal in fact. Lesbians and bisexual women were close to ten times more likely to be in prison for a serious offence (sentenced to over a year) than straight women. Can you not see why drawing inferences from this is problematic?