I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

There is no evidence to show that transwomen don't share the same patterns of criminality as other males. There is evidence to show that their patterns of criminality are totally different from women's. In the last decade or so there have been more transwomen murderers than transwomen murdered. If women shared this pattern there would be about 2000 women in prison of a population of only 3410 .

I’m really happy to have @borandukht starting this thread. Welcome OP.

My frustration with the GC/Lib Fem debate on trans issues is that it is not a debate. GC women are thrown out of online discussions and no-platformed from real life discussions. It is not possible to identify points of agreement and disagreement if Lib Fems refuse to listen to GC women, let alone engage in conversation.

I have read a lot of Lib Fem writing on trans issues as I have tried to better understand their position. I can recall only one writer who was able to articulate the GC position with any accuracy. Almost without exception, the Lib Fem writers described a set of positions which bore no relation to those put by the GC groups I support (WPUK, FPFW) or by the academics and journalists I read.

I am not arrogant enough to think that, having done this reading, my position is necessarily correct. What I do think is that no one should claim that their views are ‘right’ without being well-informed of alternative viewpoints.

I don’t think talking to your mum is sufficient to give you an understanding of the GC approach, no matter how well-read or politically active she is. This thread is a useful step and I would encourage you to do more to get your head around the GC position. You don’t have to agree with it. It is good to understand it.

This “female” pcso is being charged with a load of offences. The media initially made it clear Zoe had been born a man. There were cries of outrage from TRAs and reality has been rewritten.

thelincolnite.co.uk/2020/10/explosives-and-firearms-charges-for-ex-lincoln-psco/

They’ve been remanded in custody and I’d love to know if they’re in a male or female prison.

@Bouledeneige

Look at the evidence OP. Check out Ian Huntley, Jessica Yaniv, Lily Madigan, Aimee Challoner. Review the choices they've made, murdering schoolgirls, trying to force work from home ethnic minority beauticians to wax their penis and balls, sexual harassment of female students and appointing a paedophile as their election agent. And think about whether you'd want them locked in with you in a women only prison or women's refuge if you were a victim of male violence. And tell me why you should be forced to share space with them or have to have them elected as your women's officer. Any problems with that?

Ian Huntley is not trans, and attempting such a barefaced lie only highlights the weakness of your position.

jj1968:

I wouldn't use Self-ID as the criteria of judging which males in prison are "real trans" if I was you. That would increase the number of trans prisoners from 167 (as in the latest FPFW MoJ data) to 1,548.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/09/one-50-prisoners-identify-transsexual-first-figures-show-amid/

I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism

Why comment then, if you read neither and presumably know nothing about the editorial position of either?

I have a grown up kid (20) who knows the difference between male and female and knows that one cannot become the other, no matter how sincere the distress the distress that it causes.
He’s male though, so society hasn’t groomed him into ‘being kind’.

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?

Because they are Male - any male who insists they belong in spaces designated solely for females is suspect.
My husband is lovely, my grown up son is lovely, but no woman should have to take my
word for that and undress next to them because I said so.

Consent is not decided by democratic vote. 1 single woman saying no is a total veto.
I cannot consent on her behalf and neither can you.
If you think you can over rule the privacy, dignity, safety and consent if another female human then you need to check your privilege.

1. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?

Intersection people are still male or female. Stop othering them.
Again, check your privilege.

1. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

Legally, in the U.K., sex is determined by a combo of genitals, chromosomes, gametes and gonads.

Segments has male chromosomes, male gonads, male gametes and ambiguous genitals. She was raised female but if she was born in the U.K. she would’ve been raised Male.

Semenya is not a gotcha for activists to use. Again, check your privilege.

If you cannot define female how on earth can YOU call yourself a feminist?

So, OP when you said you wanted to engage what you meant was that you assumed that people would simply just agree with you because you were condescending towards them?

Nice try, but no prize this time.

JJ why are you not responding to the repeated information about the percentage of tw in prison who are convicted of sexual or violent crimes? Why are you ignoring all of the references apart from Huntley in the post above?

Christ this thread moves fast!

@jj1968 re convictions in 2019, there was in Scotland, Katie Dolatowski was convicted of sexual assault against a 10 year old girl in a supermarket toilet and it wasn't her only offence.

There was only one self identified trans women convicted of assault by penetration amongst other things in 2019 for a string of attacks on men. No self identified trans women were reportedly convicted of rape or sexual assault in 2019 either.

At least two (Male - or AMAB in trans language) crossdressers have been convicted of murder in 2020. You are all under the same trans umbrella according to stonewall, so please take any objections you have up with Stonewall, rather than with feminists.

Ian Huntley is not trans
No but he exploited his position as a school caretaker to kidnap and kill two young girls.
What is stopping him self-iding as trans and getting moved into the female estate? Nothing. And that’s disgraceful.

Ian huntley has said he’s trans hasn’t he?

Oh I see the Ian Huntley is trans media reports have been retracted.

I am chortling away here. A few years ago when I was drenched in uni and still thought I could do anything I wanted even as a woman, I spent bloody hours hours arguing with Dittany about the rights of the poor vulnerable transwomen and how we ought to be nice and understanding.
Don’t worry, sweetpea. When you grow up a bit, pop out a few babies, and find out exactly how little the world gives a toss about the breeding sex and their offspring, you’ll feel a teeeny bit silly.
Thankfully I know you’re not one of mine. They all have friends trying their best to pretend that sex can be changed. It’s the other pandemic. One of them was veeerrrrry close to giving it a go herself until she realised it would be the end of her sporting career. (She gave up on the horses so sadly has to rely on her own levers and abilities). These days they are just as passionate about sex based rights as I am. I think it’s a phase of internalized misogyny that a lot of young females go through on their way to adulthood.
Any man or woman is 100% welcome to trash the complete nonsense that is gender - tear it up. Any man should be free to wear lippy and high heels, bake and ballet. Go at it. Destroy gender. It’s actively damaging for all humans. Particularly the gender roles that have been assigned to females.
It’s a little worrisome when ‘feminism’ has been appropriated by those deifying gender as the one true path though. So sex and the continuation of any species (how faddy) is no longer de rigeur. Physical reality is out. Make-believe is in. With added capitalist support from the pharmaceutical industry. Lovely!
You want a beard, Cinderella, let me wave my magic wand! Here’s a prescription for T! Packer for your 4 year old? 19.99 and bragging rights on Twitter, madam. Binder for your 15yo? Excellent! Teach that girl that unless she is willing to be a sex object for men, she needs to get rid of them - oh and looky looky - another fundraiser for slicing off healthy body parts!
It’s very interesting to me in an historical sort of way. Backlash against reality as the privileged west decides that it is powerful enough to construct (forcibly) any pseudo-reality that it wants. It isn’t real, of course. But it’s your absolute right to spend as much money on a fantasy as you wish. And to make money for others.
The whole cyber human transhuman thing is quite appealing to those raised on a diet of fantasy. Reality is just not cool. Silly breeders.
Love to your mum though. You’ll find your way through it. It won’t be at university unless you are very strong. It’s far easier to be a sheep and go along with the destruction of women’s sex-based rights. I don’t blame you. Strong women are always the targets. The weak ones are tolerated and celebrated as long as they do what they are told.

Ian Huntley isn’t trans. Lots of TRAs said that we should respect “Nicola Huntley” in Nicola’s true identity. But it was never true, tabloids made it up.

@MrsWooster

JJ why are you not responding to the repeated information about the percentage of tw in prison who are convicted of sexual or violent crimes? Why are you ignoring all of the references apart from Huntley in the post above?

I have addressed them, I don't see why I should have to again. Perhaps look through my posts. Interesting that you are so quick to use prison populations to assume inherent levels of violence thought. Presumably you think that people of colour are inherently much more likely to be criminals than white people, after all that's what the prison figures show. The study I posted upthread showed that around a third of long term women prisoners in the states are lesbian or bisexual and that LGB people are more likely then straight people to be in jail for a sexual offence. So presumably you think lesbians and gays possess this same inherent increased criminality. Do you? And if not why are you prepared to judge trans people on the exact same basis?

In Canada their Inspector of Prisons admitted that 60% of prisoners in male prisoners seeking transfer into the female estate were sex offenders

Ian Huntley is not trans, and attempting such a barefaced lie only highlights the weakness of your position.

Yes, I think the Ian Huntley transitioning story was a hoax.

However, if, theoretically Huntley did transition (and there isn't really any reason to think he wouldn't more than any other male is there?) then, according to the like of Lisa Nandy and Co, he should be housed in the prison of the gender he identifies with. That's what she has publicly stated - that rapists who have raped with a penis, should be allowed in female prisons if that's what they want.

So it doesn't really matter if its Ian Huntley or any other criminal really does it?

I see we have moved from the not " real" transwomen to the " predatory" lesbian.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8303753/amp/Transgender-inmates-carried-seven-sex-attacks-women-jail.html

I think there is a fundamental problem with how we have things set up for privacy and children's activities. It's cheaper and easier to keep existing communal single sex places but we should change these to single person and family spaces, prisons need to be completely overhauled there are unsafe and underfunded .

I think part of the problem is women in general have been attacked by men and only feel safe in female friendly areas the chance that someone with different "rapey" genitala make them feel unsafe. The fact is it is unlikely to be a incident with anyone trans with someone else and if someone was so fucked in the head to do it then nothing would stop them.

It seems there's only way one or the other and now middle ground your either for or against to the extreme bit life isn't so black and white we need to fundementally change our social construct this will take time. In 50 years we will hopefully view all this soo differently, we will laugh at the terms womb Havers as just bad taste. It's not us against them not everyone is a terf because they're worried or scared, there are just things that need to change slowly and surely.

Sorry I have dyslexia so probably not explaining this well.

Crime stats are irrelevant. Males cannot become female
We either have single sex spaces and statistics or we don't.

I've gained a new found respect for her for being on this site every day, after about five hours as a member I've wanted to blow my brains out about four times

How terribly dramatic. Are you quite alright? Normally women don't speak like this. Very unusual.

I feel that if you don't feellike your gentiles/sex organs are wrong you should have every right to change them and hormones for free along with counseling. However I don't feel anything makes you a woman, it doesn't matter what length of hair you have or what you wear how you act maybe less of emphasis of what makes a woman is needed. Gender roles is ridiculous concept now and should stop.