I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

people are making a fundamental error in assuming that jj gives a shiny shit about the safety of women. he proves again and again with his posts that it's of no interest to him

@Passmeabottlemrjones

The criteria I used is, which is what the courts also use, is Self ID. They were people who identified as women and so were treated as such by the courts - although the vast majority were placed in the male prison estate on conviction as is usual practice with sex offenders.

So how are women supposed to know?

How are women supposed to know who are just the 'cross dressers' and therefore the men they are allowed to challenge in a female without being a bigot? And who are the 'self identifying women' who it would be utterly abhorrent bigotry to challenge in a female space?

Do the 'self identifying women' even need to be wearing a dress, have long hair, boobs? Are there any specific criteria? Or is it literally any man who identifies as a woman? Just their word?

Is there any reason why this question never, ever gets answered?

The claims made by FPFW do not stand up I'm afraid. Firstly they do not compare like with like

They use MoJ figures FFS. I think those figures speak loud and clear. FPFW acknowledge the MoJ could do better in terms of data capture but unfortunately they’ve been taught to capture data to Stonewall standards. As it is we know nearly 50% of TW in prison have committed sexual crimes. That’s enough to terrify any woman incarcerated with those male prisoners.

Just how far can we take self ID?
It's just all crap..
Can I claim to be black if I use self tan?

Can I claim to be Danish or 6'4"
Or a neurosurgeon- just because that feels right?

Hi OP, welcome. Conversely, I struggle to understand how feminists hold something other than a gender critical perspective (as I understand the term) so it's good to have you here.

I have a question for to you (which is likely to have some follow ups based on your answers): taking a step back from the trans issue per se, do you think all public facilities, services and (for want of a better word) examinations - e.g. medical and intimate police searches - should be unisex/sex or gender-blind, and, if not, what are the exceptions and why? I'm hoping this will demonstrate any fundamental differences of approach and understanding between us. Thanks

And the rate of convictions of self ID'd trans women is nowhere near what you would expect if trans women retained patterns of male criminality.

And if TRAs get their way and no one is even allowed to note anywhere that the woman in front of them is actually make, then transwomen will commit no crimes at all, ever. Which is... convenient.

Actually male that should say.

My autocorrect changes words even after I have checked my post. It's infuriating.

Do the 'self identifying women' even need to be wearing a dress, have long hair, boobs? Are there any specific criteria? Or is it literally any man who identifies as a woman? Just their word?

Well yes in this case. Those born physically male but who later self identify as women, or trans women, do not appear to be convicted of serious violent and sexual offences at anywhere near the same rate as those born male who do not go on to transition and identify as women.

According to transcrime not one single self identified trans women was convicted of rape or sexual assault in 2020. So it appears despite the protestations that there is a significant difference in offending patterns between self identified trans women and men. I'm not making any other claims other than that.

Maybe not rape but what about child pornography offences , murder and or violence

Also what do you consider a sexual offence? Is encouraging child abuse by downloading child pornnot a sexual offence.? What about voyeurism? Given the tiny percentage of the population which identifies as a transwomen there are a hell of a lot of them in prison for sex offences.

Is it possible though that they choose to identify as male for the purposes of the court proceedings so that they can slip under the radar as such?

Surely any man accused of sexual assault who goes to court identifying as a female would become the subject of much media scrutiny?

It is possible to identify as whatever you want and whenever you want is it not? Is it just possible that you can identify to suit a particular situation so that it benefits you?

JJ1968
I think I have shown that before but to summarise. Trans women are far more likely to be exclusively attracted to men than men are. Many trans women don't have a functional penis' due to hormones/surgery and so would be incapable of rape. And if gender is indeed a social construct then you would expect offending patterns to align more with gender than with physical sex.
And that's backed up by the very low convictions of trans women convicted of sexual offences. Way way below what you would expect if they retained patterns of male criminality. Not one self identified trans women has been convicted of raping a woman in the last two years when nearly 4000 men have. Even at the lowest estimate of the proportion of trans women in society you'd expect there to be around 12

This is the most infuriating post I think I've ever seen.
All of it is lies. All of it can be proven to be lies by a very simple internet search.
How dare you diminish and deny the sexual assault of women to further your cause?
41% of trans women in prison are there for sexual assaults. That's an insane over representation.
How fucking dare you question a woman's right to being safe from male bodied sex offenders while they are in a confined, inescapable environment? Fuck you, you rape apologist!

Sorry posted too soon.

Such as identifying as a woman simply to get into a female prison?

I do think it's a bit irrelevant to the question of whether feminists should believe men can become women and whether men should be in women's spaces.

My male partner is lovely, he still shouldn't be in women's spaces.

Men cannot become women.

If you don't know what a woman is then you can't be a feminist, seeing as feminism relates to women's rights. I'm going to sound mean here but the female socialisation is weak in me - I'm a feminist. Women first, women only. I don't want to hear about males wanting access to women's spaces, the sob stories don't work on me. No is enough. It isn't a debate, I won't be convinced or worn down and it's really getting on my nerves.

According to transcrime not one single self identified trans women was convicted of rape or sexual assault in 2020.

In view of the fact that the world was largely housebound during 2020, I'm not sure this proves your point.

Is this for a school essay? 🥱🧐

It would be interesting to me if those male athletes who choose to ID as a woman for college places choose to still identify as a woman after they’ve gained the fame/accolades or do they choose to ID as a male again once they have taken advantage of the situation?

@334bu

Maybe not rape but what about child pornography offences , murder and or violence

Well according to transcrime just one self identified trans women was convicted of murdering a woman in the last ten years. Around 2000 women were muredered by men in that period. One self identified trans women was convicted in 2020 for offences related to images of child sexual abuse and four for offences involving violence of which 2 were serious enough to warrant a prison sentence.

Maybe the understanding comes from maturity? That's why some young people can't get their heads around it all.

I'm a totally different person who sees everything so differently than before I was about 30.

Maybe with age and maturity you realise the mistake of changing things that can't be changed back.

OP, what do you think about Philip Bunce? He says he's gender fluid and non-binary and splits his time at work between being Philip and Pippa. Do you think he should have been nominated for a Women in Business award or should have only been nominated for an award for men?

And what about political party women shortlists. In theory all six candidates could be transwomen. Do you think that would be fair?

@jj1968

Do the 'self identifying women' even need to be wearing a dress, have long hair, boobs? Are there any specific criteria? Or is it literally any man who identifies as a woman? Just their word?

Well yes in this case. Those born physically male but who later self identify as women, or trans women, do not appear to be convicted of serious violent and sexual offences at anywhere near the same rate as those born male who do not go on to transition and identify as women.

According to transcrime not one single self identified trans women was convicted of rape or sexual assault in 2020. So it appears despite the protestations that there is a significant difference in offending patterns between self identified trans women and men. I'm not making any other claims other than that.

So again... How are women meant to tell the difference between cross dressers and genuine self iding transwomen?

Also, how do you explain the stat that 41% of transwomen in prison are in there for sexual crimes?

And finally, even if what you say is true, if we allow any male who 'self identifies' as a woman into female spaces, don't you think that some predatory men would take advantage of that?

Look at the evidence OP. Check out Ian Huntley, Jessica Yaniv, Lily Madigan, Aimee Challoner. Review the choices they've made, murdering schoolgirls, trying to force work from home ethnic minority beauticians to wax their penis and balls, sexual harassment of female students and appointing a paedophile as their election agent. And think about whether you'd want them locked in with you in a women only prison or women's refuge if you were a victim of male violence. And tell me why you should be forced to share space with them or have to have them elected as your women's officer. Any problems with that?

Regarding sport.

This is worth a watch.

www.prageru.com/video/the-end-of-womens-sports/

@ThinkIveFoundYourMarbles

According to transcrime not one single self identified trans women was convicted of rape or sexual assault in 2020.

In view of the fact that the world was largely housebound during 2020, I'm not sure this proves your point.

There was only one self identified trans women convicted of assault by penetration amongst other things in 2019 for a string of attacks on men. No self identified trans women were reportedly convicted of rape or sexual assault in 2019 either.