I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

OP I just have a simple question for you: if "woman" is just an identity that anyone can assume, what about race and age? Can I identify into those too? If you think that would be ridiculous, why?

I am replying to the OP only here. Trans people as we used to think of trans people are no issue to me. By that I mean transsexuals. Those people who have suffered greatly with dysphoria and made a decision to medically transition. These are the people I think we should protect alongside protecting women's rights. Not saying they are women / men, as that's biologically impossible, but as Transwomen and transmen.

The main issue here is that this isn't what trans covers in the discourse now. It covers so much that almost everyone falls under the umbrella and that makes it a nonsense.

Someone who wears a dress, has long hair, likes pink, wears heels, dons makeup and earrings is not female because of those things. To allow any male who does that to say they are female is opening up female space to abuse by men. Not because men who like to do that are necessarily predatory but because it allows predatory men to make use of a relaxation in the rules.

When 99% of all sex based violence is committed by men, in the main against women, this matters.

So no. Transvestites, people who are androgynous, butch women, people who don't conform, they should fight for their own definition. They should not come under "trans". That needs a very narrow and specific definition to allow us as a society to best support those people.

If what you want to fight for is people to be more accepting of people breaking gender societal norms, do it! We've been fighting these battles forever and need new people to take it up, I support you and welcome it, but base it in reality and science and stop trying to decimate women's spaces.

The movement to protect trans people and non conforming people has been taken over by predominately white men. It's dangerous and something that should be challenged. When your argument comes down to science denial and "no debate" you should realise something is being hidden.

@Soontobe60

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

My source was the transcrime website, a gender critical site. When you remove all the cross dressing men from their lists of trans offenders, and those who committed offences pretransition then the number of trans women convicted of serious sexual assaults (and othet violent assaults) is tiny and nowhere near what you would expect if male criminality is retained.

The claims made by FPFW do not stand up I'm afraid. Firstly they do not compare like with like, they compare longer term prisoners, who are more likely to be sex offenders, with prisoners overall. Secondly there is no way of knowing whether those who are trans had transitioned at the time of the offence they were jailed for. Thirdly, any serious study would attempt to match participants and account for things like economic marginalisation of trans people. And finally we do not make estimates of inherent criminality based on the prison population. Some people from ethnic groups are hsignificantly over-represented in prisons. A study from the US found that lesbians, bisexual women and gay men are hugely over-represented in prisons.

www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/overwhelming-number-lesbians-bisexual-women-incarcerated-n728666

Does this signify inherently higher levels of criminality amongst LGB people or certain ethnic groups? Or does it signify something about society? The same applies to trans people.

Incidentally on the injury point - as a big rugby fan I often make the point that Faf de Klerk, a 5'7" fly half who weighs barely anything, is allowed to play against 6'6" second rows who weigh the same as a bus.

Incidentally.... I think we shall be seeing some changes to weights in line ups in line with the early dementia cases. A lot like the changes discussed for the same reasons for American Football.

So, while you can currently applaud de Kerk’s inclusion against players weighing the same as a bus, maybe that will change due to the risk of injury.

Great point!!!! More work and research will come about I am sure so that players will be safer. A pity the national comp for women’s leagues have completely ignored the risk to women from male players. ... it will be the class action against those sporting boards in the future. Because they have the studies already.

SoVeryLost there were definitely trans people coming to JK Rowling’s defence.
Rose of Dawn for instance. I don’t always agree with Rose’s views but Rose puts in the work and doesn’t make up facts. Rose was good on the Keira Bell judgement for instance (on here described as an audio version with heckling sound effects from her friends)...
There is a risk that people that transition to lead more complete lives despite gender dysphoria will be harmed by some of this daft rhetoric.
Remember that the UK’s first prosecution for a transphobic hate crime was against a very thoughtful person, Miranda Yardley. Miranda was against unconditional transitioning of children and has suffered as a result. Miranda is a transwoman. The prosecution fortunately failed, despite the efforts of the complainant, Mermaid’s Minnymum.

When you remove all the cross dressing men from their lists of trans offenders, and those who committed offences pretransition then the number of trans women convicted of serious sexual assaults (and othet violent assaults) is tiny and nowhere near what you would expect if male criminality is retained.
How do you tell the difference between cross dressing and transgender, if the person identifies as trans?
And why does it matter if an offence was committed pre or post transition? The person still committed the crime?

Once again jj resorts to the usual ," not real transwomen" Unlike other trans allies jj doesn't seem to believe that late transitioned were always transwomen. Oh wait that's only the ones who are sex offenders( not real transwomen) all the rest were always transwomen.

When you remove all the cross dressing men from their lists of trans offenders, and those who committed offences pretransition then the number of trans women convicted of serious sexual assaults (and othet violent assaults) is tiny and nowhere near what you would expect if male criminality is retained.

JJ, you can’t have your penny AND your bun: you don’t get to claim that Eddie and Elliott have ALWAYS been trans, that Alex and Daniella are DEFINITELY trans but anyone who commits a crime isn’t really trans at all... or wasn’t yet trans... or... Acceptance without exception.

jj can't define 'transitioned' despite resting all jjself's arguments on that word, so forgive me if I skim those posts eh?

@midgebabe

I suspect that the sexuality of trans people may vary depending on the culture they live in . In homophobic societies gay people may identify, or be forced to identity,as transgender

Iran. For example, where being gay can get you the death penalty. www.humandignitytrust.org/country-profile/iran/

And where trans surgery isn’t the answer to being gay

www.dw.com/en/how-irans-anti-lgbt-policies-put-transgender-people-at-risk/a-53270136

Countries where sex between men is illegal
www.humandignitytrust.org/lgbt-the-law/map-of-criminalisation/?type_filter=crim_sex_men

OP think you need to climb down from your high horse and have a cuppa.

But if you go with Stonewall's trans umbrella, you don't get to disregard cross dressing male offenders - they're just as 'trans' as Buck Angel/Blaire White/Karen White/you are jj.

Have Stonewall got that wrong?

My source was the transcrime website, a gender critical site. When you remove all the cross dressing men from their lists of trans offenders, and those who committed offences pretransition then the number of trans women convicted of serious sexual assaults (and othet violent assaults) is tiny and nowhere near what you would expect if male criminality is retained.

Again...

What are the criteria for 'transition' and what is the difference between a cross dressing man and a transwoman, apart from their 'inner feelings', which women can't see anyway?!

Secondly there is no way of knowing whether those who are trans had transitioned at the time of the offence they were jailed for.

Does it matter? I thought people like your 'national treasure' Eddie Izzard have always been women, just like Elliot Page has never, ever, ever been a woman?

When you remove all the cross dressing men from their lists of trans offenders

JKR was horrifically abused again because her book had a man in it who wore a woman's coat. Why exactly was that ''transphobic'' if men wearing women's clothes don't count as trans?

@Soontobe60

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

If by AGP you mean the somewhat archaic and discredited 40 year old theory that trans women are either exclusively sexually attracted to themselves as women due to a target location error or are 'extreme homosexuals' who possess a natural feminine essence then you are quite incorrect. Many of the people claimed to be AGPs by Blanchard and co went on to have full gender reassignment surgery, and all were by his very definition sexually disordered meaning that conventional heterosexual sexual activity was of little interest to them.

Dear god. That's why I no longer engage with TRAs. Her poor, poor mother.

@Passmeabottlemrjones

My source was the transcrime website, a gender critical site. When you remove all the cross dressing men from their lists of trans offenders, and those who committed offences pretransition then the number of trans women convicted of serious sexual assaults (and othet violent assaults) is tiny and nowhere near what you would expect if male criminality is retained.

Again...

What are the criteria for 'transition' and what is the difference between a cross dressing man and a transwoman, apart from their 'inner feelings', which women can't see anyway?!

The criteria I used is, which is what the courts also use, is Self ID. They were people who identified as women and so were treated as such by the courts - although the vast majority were placed in the male prison estate on conviction as is usual practice with sex offenders.

Re question one: if a space is designated female-only, no males allowed regardless of identity, then none of my rapists have the right to enter that space.

If you make it a woman-gender space, inclusive of transwomen, one third of my rapists have the right to enter.

@MrsWooster

When you remove all the cross dressing men from their lists of trans offenders, and those who committed offences pretransition then the number of trans women convicted of serious sexual assaults (and othet violent assaults) is tiny and nowhere near what you would expect if male criminality is retained.

JJ, you can’t have your penny AND your bun: you don’t get to claim that Eddie and Elliott have ALWAYS been trans, that Alex and Daniella are DEFINITELY trans but anyone who commits a crime isn’t really trans at all... or wasn’t yet trans... or... Acceptance without exception.

I am specifically addressing the claim often made that trans women retain male patterns of criminality after transition. By transition I meant the point at which they self-ID as women, which is probably the broadest possible measure as it doesn't imply any medical treatment or a legal change of sex. And the rate of convictions of self ID'd trans women is nowhere near what you would expect if trans women retained patterns of male criminality.

Yes yes all transwomen are lovely until they're not and then they are not real transwomen. Transwomen are malecand behave like all other males when it comes to criminality.

They only way you can tell a stranger with a penis isn't going to assault you when you are vulnerable is when they don't assault you. That's why we have safeguarding protocols.

Question for the OP @borandukht

Do you feel any compassion for the women you’ve ‘forced’ to remember and relate past trauma by your request for them to explain why they might be concerned about transwomen in women only spaces?

The criteria I used is, which is what the courts also use, is Self ID. They were people who identified as women and so were treated as such by the courts - although the vast majority were placed in the male prison estate on conviction as is usual practice with sex offenders.

So how are women supposed to know?

How are women supposed to know who are just the 'cross dressers' and therefore the men they are allowed to challenge in a female without being a bigot? And who are the 'self identifying women' who it would be utterly abhorrent bigotry to challenge in a female space?

Do the 'self identifying women' even need to be wearing a dress, have long hair, boobs? Are there any specific criteria? Or is it literally any man who identifies as a woman? Just their word?

The criteria I used is, which is what the courts also use, is Self ID

jesus

it's so fucking impractical isn't it?