I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

Regarding refuges, there is a specific opportunity for them to reject anyone who poses even the mildest risk for any of their other sheltered people (such as with same-sex attracted victims of sexual assault). Any good refuge will (as the stats in these countries would indicate) discern whether anybody, cis or trans, is out there as a genuine victim or to assault other victims.

On what basis can refuges refuse this - what is the “specific opportunity” of which you speak?

It’s not just refuges or prisons. It’s hospitals too, another setting where women are particularly vulnerable.

How can anyone “discern” that a particular trans person is not a “true” trans person and not acting in good faith? Without being discriminatory or open to accusations of discrimination? If the law cannot help define a woman, man, trans woman, trans man or any other class of person, how will we police this? Or gather meaningful statistics to create laws?

*But trans ideology is the opposite of gender non conformity. Genuine gender non conformity says "so you're a man (woman) who likes the stuff society arbitrarily associates with women (men)? Fine. Crack on. You're great just as you are."

Trans ideology says "so you're a man (woman) who likes the stuff society arbitrarily associates with women (men)? That means you are in reality a woman (man) because such is the overwhelming importance of sexist stereotypes the define who you are."

Trans ideology is about embracing, about "reifying" sexist stereotypes. It's completely the opposite of being gender non conforming.*

👏🏻 PREACH

When I'm wearing trousers, or doing 'man things' like DIY or earning money, am I a man? And when I cook dinner, am I a woman? Is my husband a woman when he patiently disentangles my embroidery threads?

I'd like to know so I can work out what I am by proportion of time spent. It'll be confusing to deal with time spent in my maternity jeans when I was pregnant and putting flat pack furniture together but I'm sure I'll come to an accommodation somehow.

@334bu

What evidence do you have that the subset of the male sex who identify as women are less likely to be violent or sexually abusive to females than other males?

Glad you asked this. According to the transcrime website - a gender critical source - only two trans women who self identified as women at the time the offence was committed and later in court have been convicted of rape in the last five years and one of those was convicted of assaulting men.

Over 12,000 men have been convicted of rape in the same period, the vast majority by far for attacks on women. If trans women represent just 0.3% of those born physically male then you would expect 36 convictions over five years. So from the figures we have it appears that a man is around 36 times more likely to be convicted of raping a woman than a trans woman is.

I wonder if the fact that all the things that the OP states have not happened, or are not so, can be disproved by pretty easily verified sources, will persuade her that maybe her Mum isn't quite as misinformed as she thinks.

Thank you for your response @borandukht

4) On the idea of women being traditionally female - does that not mean that every radfem who rejects traditional gender roles loses their womanhood? Traditional femininity relies a lot more on gendered preconceptions of responsible societal behaviour (being a stay at home mum, wearing dresses, liking pink to be glib etc.) than it does on sex. Incidentally, this definition leaves a lot of trans-women being considered women and a lot of cis-women who reject traditional gender expression as not women

I think when I said female you’ve interpreted that as feminine - I meant female as in chromosomes. So actually I agree with you, gender/feminine presentation has fuck all to do with being a woman. Lots of women eschew traditional femininity, but they are no less women.

So where does that leave transgender women? Once you remove the gender stereotypes, what is it that makes them women?

1) I'm deeply sorry you have had to endure that, and the last thing I (or any trans-activist) would want is for you to feel your trauma is invalid or for your right to be vulnerable and scared. You are entitled to that fear, to feel the way you feel, but equally deprivation of civil rights on the predicate of a tragedy isn't something I support

Thank you. can you see though that there is then a conflict between my rights and those of transgender women?

I have a lot of sympathy with transgender people and want to reach a way forward as allies. I believe there’s compromise to be had, but we cannot get there based on the current trans activism orthodoxy. That’s because it suggests that there is no conflict between the rights of natal women and transgender women. That is wrong on so many levels, and prevents a discussion about how best to balance those rights. We simply can’t move forward until this conflict is acknowledged.

If you can understand why being around someone with a penis in eg a changing room would be upsetting for me as a survivor, but are concerned about the rights of trans women to use women only spaces, can you see that there is in fact a conflict of what is best for us?

I appreciate your opinion that you feel trans women’s civil rights (as you put it) take precedence, and we can agree to disagree on that, but I’d like if possible for you to really consider if you see the issue from my point of view.

Because one of the things you asked is why women would have a problem with a trans woman in a women’s space and I hope I have given you food for thought in that regard.

Incidentally on the injury point - as a big rugby fan I often make the point that Faf de Klerk, a 5'7" fly half who weighs barely anything, is allowed to play against 6'6" second rows who weigh the same as a bus.

Incidentally the physical strength gap between Mr de Klerk and his 6'6" second row forward will be infinitely less significant than that existing between Mr de Klerk and me, a 5'7" (same height) female bodybuilder.

I've read what else you say and you are entitled to your opinion. Let me give you mine: you're talking cockcustard.

Read what the other women on here, who still have the capacity for rational argument (sorry, it's been a long couple of days) have to say and consider whether your mother may have a point.

How do women benefit from mixed sex spaces and services?

Why should a man convicted of sex offences have the right to change their legal gender and be placed in a women's prison?

Given that women cant gain a conviction against their rapist when he admits it, what makes you think all offenders have their offenses on record?

can make stricter rules for women only spaces, including restricting access for trans women.

Yes! I pick that option! Thanks

Can you at least let me know why cancer charities are being hammered for transphobia/lack of inclusion when they use the word woman but not when they use the word men?

Why are supporters not cancelling Movember for their blatant transphobia in using the word “men” rather than “people with prostates/testicles/at risk of suicide”?

Fwiw, to rephrase that, I don't think transwomen are necessarily predatory, or a threat in ladies loos etc. I meant that the gender critical agenda should be focussing not on older transwomen and their right to be transwomen or otherwise,
BUT on the ethical treatment and support of gender dysphoric teens

As for prisons, the statistics show that trans-women have not committed sex assaults in prison

You need to check where you're getting your stats from. Because that isn't true.

OP you understand this as you yourself as framing this wholly as the rights for the male people that you are seeking depend on rights being removed from females.

Everything you mention or refer to is about denying there are problems for women, minimising them, explaining them away - essentially you are invested in convincing women to give up and let male people have what they want.

You understand wholly that achieving 'trans rights' in this sense is simply the achievement of removal of rights from females.

Until the argument moves from 'give us your rights, you don't really need them and you're mean' to 'let's find a way forward that equally respects intersectionality and ALL people's needs', you cant really expect female people who care about other female people to be enthusiastic about your personal agenda.

You imply that GC people do not like GNC people. That completely missed the point.

Many GC feminists are GNC and respect everyone's right to dress and present as they wish without being defined by other people.

They also recognise the sex based oppression experienced by females and believe that eroding the protection of sex based rights is detrimental to all women, regardless of how they identify.

If you can’t even define ‘woman’ you certainly are no feminist. That’s the truth of the matter.

**borandukht

334bu

What evidence do you have that the subset of the male sex who identify as women are less likely to be violent or sexually abusive to females than other males?

Well, if you look at the statistics, areas that have allowed for de facto/de iure self-id access to single-sex spaces have not seen a spike in sex assaults or rapes of any kind. In addition, according to an FOI request, there have been zero assaults or rapes by transgender prisoners of cisgender women in single sex prisons.

I don't have access to the FOI at the moment, but here is a survey of the former evidence: link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z
Incidentally, these sort of trans-protective laws allowing access for them have existed in some municipalities since 1989 (in Minneapolis, MN I believe), and there has been no rise in sex assaults as a result.**

So that would be no evidence then to show that transwomen are any different in criminality!
Well here's some evidence to show that they are just as likely as other men to be sexual violent offenders.

fairplayforwomen.com/prisons/

I would weep if the OP was my child. So uninformed and thinks she’s so rights on. Yawn. The OP is basic.

after about five hours as a member I've wanted to blow my brains out about four times

Yes, the cognitive dissonance will do that to you. Most of us have been there, and started off from the same initial position as your mother (be kind, the new civil rights movement, etc) until we couldn’t keep lying to ourselves any more. The truth will set you free, but first it will drive you mad.

Ireland's is the most well studied as far as I know, but none have recorded any issues from the self-ID aside from an increase in govt paperwork

So the Barbie Kardashian fiasco doesn't strike you as even a little bit troubling?

Also, you're not exactly having the promised reasoned debate.

Why would women have a problem with trans people in their safe spaces? Well you only have to look on line and see that the very people who are telling us there is nothing to be worried about are also the ones who send us abuse, rape threats and death threats when we disagree. Whether you agree with trans people sharing womens spaces or not, you can't blame people for being a bit wary of those who resort to threats of violence if the debate doesn't go their way. After all how are women in vulnerable, intimate spaces supposed to know if the person who walks through the door is A, a nice trans person, B, a trans person who might threaten to rape them if they don't get their spot in front of the bathroom mirror, or C, a man using self ID as an opportunity to gain access to womens spaces. You can't know. That is the point.

I've gained a new found respect for her for being on this site every day, after about five hours as a member I've wanted to blow my brains out about four times

Goodness, does critical thinking and real feminism tend to have that effect on you? I have the utmost respect for your mum