I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

Also OP I find it deeply offensive that you refer to women as "cisgender".

You can report it if you like. The use of that term is goady and against MN talk guidelines as likely to offend FWR posters, if you relate it to the women on this board. There are many things we can't say, so fair's fair.

OP, I wonder if you wouldn't mind setting out the main tenets of feminism for you?

OP - describing yourself as being 'at the end of your tether' with your mother sounds like you have internalised some societal misogyny where people (usually men, but sometimes 'young feminists') try to shut down any sort of debate with a woman who doesn't agree with their point of view.

Do you think that might be a possibility in your case, my dearie?

@HecatesCats

OP, I wonder if you wouldn't mind setting out the main tenets of feminism for you?

Preferably without using the words 'feels like' and 'just be kind'

I’ve just come back from a walk. I passed a building site with a portaloo. Two cubicles. One man the other wokeky probleiming it’s was gender neural. No woman only cubicle. The gender neutral said on the door it wasn’t making assumptions about anyone’s gender. No just making a huge assumption that women can be sidelined, pushed out, not entitled to a private dignified toilet of their own unlike the men who get a choice of a single sex space. Despite the fact physically weaker women and girls feel threatened in mixed spaces snd that women need private space to cope with periods breast feeding miscarriages. Assumption indeed

Is there some brainwashing technique used by TRAs that prevents their sympathisers being able to read easily available crime reports

Many TRAs are masters of the fake news technique. Repeat a lie enough and at least some people will believe it.

I'm fascinated as to why you won't define cisgender OP, so I'll ask again. Given you've used the term multiple times, what exactly does cisgender mean?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I've gained a new found respect for her for being on this site every day, after about five hours as a member I've wanted to blow my brains out about four times

Goodness, does critical thinking and real feminism tend to have that effect on you? I have the utmost respect for your mum

Feminism that doesn't centre men can come as a shock to some women, cant it 😁

Or maybe she's writing some little undergrad assignment on the dreadful transphobic British women so that she can take quotes back and twist them to make her point.

Oh pleease, we need another clueless, tone deaf, block headed American attack blog on feminists in the U.K. Its been almost five whole minutes since the last one!

Yes it's pretty homophobic. Thought we'd moved past all this crap years ago. Seemingly it's back with a vengeance.

Talking about genital preferences when you mean being gay or lesbian is pretty homophobic yes! I quite agree.

Just read all the OP’s posts. Can’t see any references for any of the claims she makes for what the ‘stats’ show. Loads of links and references offered to her, none of which she seems to have even acknowledged. This is what depresses me the most about this generation of ‘feminists ‘: their complete willingness to take the TRA arguments on trust and thereby ignore not only clear evidence to the contrary, but also the experiences and opinions of older women. I get that we become invisible to many men, but to be held in such contempt by daughters who have benefited from our fights really hurts.

Also "uncomforted"?? WTF?

OP regarding sports, I play Roller Derby which is probably the most trans woman friendly sort there is.
I can categorically tell you there is a huge difference between playing against a woman and a trans woman. Trans women are much more akin to men, regarding their centre of gravity. Their chests and bodies are much harder than women's (probably due to being more muscly) and hits hurt a lot more to give and take from a TW. And over all there is a much faster, more viscous game playing against men or with TW. Male bodied people seem to have an insatiable need to win at all costs. But against most of us women, they don't have to hit as hard to knock us down as we do them.
Now there are more women who are better at roller Derby as it's predominantly a woman's sport, so most of the best players in the top teams will probably beat many trans players, but that doesn't stop many of us at the bottom from not enjoying the game as much when TW are involved. However, none of us would dare to voice such an opinion as we would not be able to play the game we love any more.

I should also point out, that when I started the game, I felt the same as you, that TWAW and whilst I noticed the physical difference I didn't really think about it. It's only since then that I have had my eyes opened. Look up Pips Bunce and Alex Drummond as they were the first people I saw who made me at it all.
For context ' Pips' is a woman about 3 days a week, on these days Pip's feels ' just more ditzy' (or words to that effect), Alex retains his beard, cock and balls and all his testosterone, but wears make up and a dress and claims he is 'pushing the boundary of woman hood'

It followed from there and I saw the people who were being called bigots, Germaine Greer, Linda Bellos women who stood side by side with race movements, gay movements and would these people suddenly turn into bigots or could it be they have a point?
The final straw was when Rachel McKinnon called Martina Navratilova a bigot and asked if she (MN) knew who they (RM) was. MARTINA NAVRATILOVA??! The arrogance of Rachel McKinnon questioning Martina Navratilova just made me realise it was all bullshit.

And that's not even starting on Morgan Oger,, Jessica Yaniv, Danielle Muscato, Karen White, Amy challinor, Emilia Decaudin, lily madigan to name but a few.

"So I'm here to listen…"

Feminism that doesn't centre men can come as a shock to some women, cant it

Absolutely.

Can I just say what a great post Diverze made. Please OP, read it and learn something.

Great post, Skateosaurus.

God, it’s so depressing that a ‘young feminist’ would see feminism as being about ....serving and validating men. Making men feel good about themselves. Making their lives smooth &easy. The new feminism - servile feminism!

The biggest and best trick the penis rights movement has ever played was dressing itself up as feminism, and fooling gullible young women seeking male approval.

Great post, Skateosaurus.

Yes, second this.

Another great post, Sloth.

Also, OP, if you want to look on another thread, check out the thread about flashing (this might not be a term you understand as you are v likely American).

It is very disconcerting, uncomfortable and threatening to be alone with an unwanted erect penis.

Glad you asked this. According to the transcrime website - a gender critical source - only two trans women who self identified as women at the time the offence was committed and later in court have been convicted of rape in the last five years and one of those was convicted of assaulting men.

What relevance is the timing of when they self identified as transgender? Surely they are all valid regardless of when they have their revelation?

Why are you discriminating against the other members of Stonewall’s trans umbrella? According to them a part-time cross dresser is as valid as a full transsexual (and certainly in hospital policy, the part-timer gets as much access to female only wards as the other make-bodied trans people) so we can’t cherrypick when it comes to crime stats.

Are you hoping that people won’t have a look at that website and look at the many rapes, murders, sexual assaults, stabbings etc carried out by male-bodied people who identify as female? Are you not counting the sexual assault on a child involving a condom in your count as it isn’t officially rape? Do you think that anything charged as less than rape doesn’t count?

I honestly can’t see how you arrived at a total of 2 rapes - Karen White accounts for more than that on Karen’s own! And then we’ve got the female prisoner currently taking the Ministry of Justice to court for her rape. There are quite a few more, I cba to look through again - maybe you could look again jj? Or maybe the good lurkers of mumsnet will actually check for themselves rather than taking your word for it

@Somethingkindaoooo

So, I was watching Katy Keene the other day- one character is a drag performer. When he is in costume, he gets referred to as' she' - like all it takes to be a woman is to put on a sparkly dress and lots of makeup.

But they kept referring to ' convincing ' performers as fishy and filet o fish.

My god that's offensive. How is that ok?
And it was on the BBC?

Complain loudly to the beeb. They would not allow offensive racist comments, so how is this ok ?

The biggest and best trick the penis rights movement has ever played was dressing itself up as feminism, and fooling gullible young women seeking male approval.

Yep, and when the female crime figures rocket as they have in Norway all their Christmases have come at once as they gleefully shout See, women are as bad as men, they do it too.

Marvellous, just fucking marvellous and you have those like the OP cheering them on whilst they make a bonfire of women's rights.

What makes a woman? - XX chromosomes which exist in every cell of the human body.
It doesn't matter how much surgery/hormones someone has - there is no way currently of changing that pesky male Y chromosome to an X chromosome so a male can never become a female.