I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

I see the promise to engage politely and seriously lasted no further than the first post.

Gosh I am suprised. Were you surprised? I was surprised.

Self-Id was recognised in Ireland and there is a fairly substantial backlash to what was effectively sneaked through. Because the logic falls over once you test it against situations where women are vulnerable. Mercifully, in life, tbe overwhelming majority of people with a penis (see, I can use the woo words) don't predate. But there are ones that do. And they groom not only the vulnerable but also people around them that don't believe it could ever happen.

Ah yes, because the defining feature of womanhood is whether a man wants to fuck her. Nice.

You are right though, it does seem to be that the vast majority of people who have issues with trans rights tend to be men. So much for feminine solidarity eh?

What an odd answer.

What the hell is feminine solidarity when it's at home?

I'm starting the countdown to the you are all big, nasty meanies flounce........

One person? Have you been following the actions and behaviour of the trans activists in the last few years at all?

yes, because the defining feature of womanhood is whether a man wants to fuck her. Nice.

That’s not what that poster said and you know it. You are dodging the question of why TRAs always come and bother women. Never go and bother a male dominated forum (where there tends to be a lot of blatant transphobia). The previous poster was giving an example of a commonly held view which a lot of men have.....which I’m sure you’d consider transphobic.

But you don’t go and lecture them do you? No, because you’re someone who thinks women should know their place. You’ve been totally brain washed. You aren’t answering the majority of questions here. You seem to have quite low understanding of the issues and a total lack of awareness of how unintelligent you come across. I feel sorry for your mother, she must be so ashamed/embarrassed of you.

It’s like a having conversation with Farage about immigration, you’re not going to get anywhere op.

You are right though, it does seem to be that the vast majority of people who have issues with trans rights tend to be men. So much for feminine solidarity eh?

What?

So you admit that men are the ones having issues with trans rights and thats Womens fault

@WanderingHopefully

Could you define exactly what 'cisgender' means for me please?

Also, as you refer to it above, could you just explain what legal process a man has to go through to 'self identify' as a woman?

I feel this is the crux of the issue. She can't seem to answer/engage with it at all.

Also OP I find it deeply offensive that you refer to women as "cisgender". I am a natal woman. My sex was observed at birth not assigned. I am not an isomer.

In Norway they allowed self id on birth certificates 4 years ago. Within 2 years there was a 400% spike in female crime. Any comment on that OP?

Yes, I'm curious as to OP's reaction to that too Apollo440.

I'll address all sports related queries here - I generally think that transpeople should be able to compete as cispeople but with certain safeguards to ensure they have medically as well as socially transitioned

Sporting ability isn’t only affected by hormones. A biological male will have a different centre of gravity, a narrower pelvis, and different skeletal ratio’s which are advantageous. You cannot change your skeleton, no matter how many hormones or hormone blockers you take.

How can one gather proof of an increase in crimes by women being due to self ID when erm, the crimes of self identifying trans women are recorded as women's crimes?

Another study into transwomen in sport

www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

Relating to this study:

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2020/11/06/bjsports-2020-102329

How again do you negate the benefits of male puberty? Studies have shown conclusively that hormone treatment has little effect (maybe 5-10% decrease) and this has been shown over different studies from different sources including a military study.

In fact, one of the ‘lauded’ studies by Harper was debunked immediately as having very little scientific robustness, and it was anecdotal at best. Sadly, it was used by the IOC but better research has become available since that disproves that study.

@borandukht
It is my opinion that any statistics captured before the explosion of trans youth around circa 2010 are looking at a different population and are not automatically applicable to the post 2010 population (eg desistence stats which are based on pre-2010 populations). Do you? Are you aware of the scope of the explosion in trans youth, especially natal females? We are running at around 4400 percent increase in natal females identifying as trans, mostly for the first time in early teen years. To what do you ascribe this?

Do you believe that autistic young people, who by definition are inclined to black and white thinking and narrowed interests, and who by research are hugely overrepresented in this group of natal girls who first identify as trans aged 12-15, are exactly the same in terms of their aetiology, motivation and therefore treatment pathway as a) a child who persistently and insistently identifies as trans from very early childhood or b) a male who married, has children and transitions in their 50s? How are you confident in your assertions about what pathway is right for each person?

Also: I'm baffled by how every poster who trundles on here and announces themselves as of the side of Light and Kindness and Inclusion and Rights and All Good Things and here to lighten our sad little darkness...

Then turns out to be extremely rude, anything but kind or thoughtful or even basically politically aware, weaponises (well, lesbians and DSDs so far), ageist, absolutely against intersectionality and generally.... well, not exactly modelling the values they came to enlighten the heathens with.

Faf de Klerk - hardly looks fragile!

Finally, a question.

You have a son. He comes to you aged 12 and tells you he does not want children; not now, not ever. He is absolutely certain of this.

Do you book him a vasectomy?

If not, why not?

I'm very pleased to hear that the OP's mother follows this board. I feel sorry for her if she's reading her daughter's patronising posts and evident lack of knowledge of the law, feminism, data and facts. Hopefully as an older woman she will be tolerant and not too embarrassed about the naivety and desire to lecture older women being displayed.

@borandukht

You keep mentioning 'civil rights'

The desire to work with female sexual assault victims is not a 'civil right'

Trans people in the UK currently have the same civil rights as everyone else. Civil rights include equal social opportunities and legal protections. Examples include the right to vote, to a fair trial, to government services, to a public education.

Transpeople have the same protection under the equality act and other legislation that we all do.

What civil rights specifically do you think trans people don't have? What exactly is the trans civil rights movement campaigning for?

) I understand intersexuality and transgender identity are not the same, however this whole talk of people with penises being barred from entering women's spaces regardless of said identity does exclude many intersex people who themselves have a penis or penis like appendage. Hence the mention of it.

There aren't women with penises. Greek mythology over hermaphrodites is just that - mythology.

I'm wondering whether you're referring to women with virilised clitorises here. I don't really know where to start with this except that this othering of women's bodies for their medical conditions is exactly what they're objecting to.

This kind of attitude leads to infants being operated on to normalise their parts with aesthetics in mind. People with variations in sexual characteristics have been campaigning to stop this happening and they say the trans rights movement is sabotaging that.

@Soontobe60

Faf de Klerk - hardly looks fragile!

Hes not fragile as a flower

Hes as fragile as a bomb

( thats what i say about dd)

I think the op wants frothing and is floundering with reasoned responses

I dont think we should engage with this person deliberately using the "cis" word to gain reactions if they cannot even respect that one line that was drawn a long time ago how can they listen and engage in any meaningful discussion

OP, I’d like your opinion on the matter of my lesbian friend who likes women. As funnily enough most lesbians do.

What’s your opinion on the trans men, with penises, who think they should be able to sleep with my friend. And get cross when she says she’s not interested in them (men). And come up with comments like “suck my lady dick”.

Do you support them? Do you think they’re right? Do you think lesbians should be told they should have sex with people with penises?

Before you blow your brains out OP can ou tell us what you think the word "woman" means?

Or does that make your litte head hurt too much?

@borandukht

What is a transwoman?

At what objective point, upon which law and policy can be made, does a 'man who identifies as a woman' come out of the 'high risk' category of male and into the much lower risk category of female? What are the criteria for that? (I cannot tell you how many times I have asked this question on this board and I have never even had an attempt at an answer!)

How do women tell between a' genuine' transwoman and a predator looking for a loophole in the law?

What rights do you believe trans people do not currently have in law?