I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

This is painful to watch. It's like me going on a cricket thread and telling the posters there that they have all the rules wrong.

None of these countries has recorded any rise in sexual assaults, rapes, or anything like that. Ireland's is the most well studied as far as I know, but none have recorded any issues from the self-ID aside from an increase in govt paperwork

There are several self-ID transwomen in Irish women's prisons who are causing problems for the authorities because they didn't foresee that this might happen with self-ID.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4033284-Another-one-for-Irish-Feminists-this-person-holds-a-GRC-and-might-soon-be-held-in-Dochas-prison-with-women-and-childrem

www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/sex-offender-undergoing-male-female-16623261

Bloody hell @borandukht is back!

Where have you been on you looong journey in a pandemic. Or was it just to check your editor wanted you to reply????!

Us lot (!) we’re ok though it’s amazing how women over the age of 28 have the ability to converse- quite shocking really. Some people are even quite knowledgable.

1) I'm deeply sorry you have had to endure that, and the last thing I (or any trans-activist) would want is for you to feel your trauma is invalid or for your right to be vulnerable and scared. You are entitled to that fear, to feel the way you feel, but equally deprivation of civil rights on the predicate of a tragedy isn't something I support.

So you're basically saying that you think that women who have survived sexual assault are entitled to feel fearful of being examined by a male-bodied person, but that a male's desire to work in a female sexual assault service setting is a 'civil right' and 'depriving' a male bodied person of access to female sexual assault survivors is a more important issue than how those assault survivors feel?

I think if trans women really were women they'd be able to empathise enough with the fear of male-bodied violence, that they wouldn't expect traumatised women to accommodate their preferences and fetishes dressed up as 'civil rights'

On the idea of women being traditionally female - does that not mean that every radfem who rejects traditional gender roles loses their womanhood? Traditional femininity relies a lot more on gendered preconceptions of responsible societal behaviour (being a stay at home mum, wearing dresses, liking pink to be glib etc.) than it does on sex. Incidentally, this definition leaves a lot of trans-women being considered women and a lot of cis-women who reject traditional gender expression as not women.

Are you wilfully misrepresenting radical feminism and trying to make it out to mean the precise opposite of what it does mean, or are you simply just fucking thick as pigshit? I really can't tell.

Yes actually! Self-ID has been legally recognized in I believe five or so countries and has been de-facto applied in several other municipalities (to my knowledge). None of these countries has recorded any rise in sexual assaults, rapes, or anything like that. Ireland's is the most well studied as far as I know, but none have recorded any issues from the self-ID aside from an increase in govt paperwork

And most of those countries have a woeful record on rights for women. Ireland is not without problems, recent cases there have highlighted this.

Any comment on the increase of 400% crimes committed by women in Norway? Or are you just like everyone else who parrots this nonsense going to ignore the facts that are staring you in the face?

OP on Caster you say this:

3) She was born and raised as a woman, with a vagina and breasts, but she has XY chromosomes. There is debate as to whether she is intersex or not, as far as I believe that's not how she considers herself.

That's a big fat nope from me on this. No vagina, no breasts beyond the moobs that blokes have. And definitely not considering themselves to be a girl. Watch the videos, read the articles. What you are saying is incorrect.

And yes Caster is intersex not trans. Nothing to do with trans

Could you define exactly what 'cisgender' means for me please?

Also, as you refer to it above, could you just explain what legal process a man has to go through to 'self identify' as a woman?

I find women to man completely unthreatening, and one can often not tell.

However..
It is people like “Karen White” and the “Axe weilder” person in Australia who viciously axed two innocent shoppers , and the “IT’S MA’AM!!” Person that turn me right off men who identify as women.

They still have testosterone surging, are strong and aggressive.

Playing sports against XX women is also not “ fair”
Due to strong male bodies.

@Apollo440

In Norway they allowed self id on birth certificates 4 years ago. Within 2 years there was a 400% spike in female crime. Any comment on that OP? Or is that another one of your fictional 'zero' evidence cases?

Could you give any proof of this?

OP: I'm here to listen.
14 pages of nuanced argument.
OP: You are wrong. Baseless generalisation.
Inaccurate statistics.
Idealistic generalisation.

I wish we could all get along like we used to in middle school. I wish I could bake a cake filled with rainbows and smiles and everyone would eat and be happy.

She doesn't even go here.

I just have a lot of feelings.

Are you wilfully misrepresenting radical feminism and trying to make it out to mean the precise opposite of what it does mean, or are you simply just fucking thick as pigshit? I really can't tell.

I know, it's a dilemma isn't it.

"Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces..."

It is MALES who are potentially a threat to women in women's spaces. Not specifically transwomen, but all males. No matter how they dress, or how they identify.

Women must be able to challenge any male who crosses that boundary because we have no way of telling which males are predators/harassers until they actually act.

Allowing access to anyone who says they are a woman (despite all evidence to the contrary) opens the door to any male who wants to wander around the women's changing room/shower block/hospital ward for ANY reason. And nobody would have the right to challenge him.

@borandukht

4. On the idea of women being traditionally female - does that not mean that every radfem who rejects traditional gender roles loses their womanhood? Traditional femininity relies a lot more on gendered preconceptions of responsible societal behaviour (being a stay at home mum, wearing dresses, liking pink to be glib etc.) than it does on sex. Incidentally, this definition leaves a lot of trans-women being considered women and a lot of cis-women who reject traditional gender expression as not women.

The above is what you’ve said OP. But it seems the opposition of what most TRAs say. Trans ideology seems to wholeheartedly embrace gender stereotypes. Like I said in my first post. So a man likes pink, wants to wear dresses, oh he must be a woman. A woman likes diy and motorbikes, oh they must be a bloke.

Which is obviously bollocks. But I hear trans women say it time and time again. “Oh I felt like a woman”.

OP....can you tell me what a woman feels like? Because as far as I’m aware there’s no hive mind of feeling like a woman. We’re all individuals and think differently, feel differently. We should celebrate that. Women don’t all feel the same. Men don’t all feel the same.

I’ve no idea if I feel like a woman or think like a woman because how could I possibly know how other people thjnk or feel. I only know how I feel, I only know how I think.

I think it’s totally insulting for men to say they feel like women. Like they’re reducing us to stepford wives, all with the same mindset rather than thinking of us as individuals. Don’t you feel insulted by that? You should do!

Any chance you could answer me?

Thanks.

@midgebabe

OP

Here's a thought. Instead of talking to women, why not go bother someone else's talk to a few men.
Ask them if they are happy to give up all single sex spaces that they currently have. If they would be happy for any one identifying as a transman to use all their facilities. Would they feel comfortable? Would they think the person was male or female? Would they be happy for such a person to carry out intimate searches? Would they be happy to sleep with a transwoman?

Because a lot of men I know are not happy with those ideas.

Ah yes, because the defining feature of womanhood is whether a man wants to fuck her. Nice.

You are right though, it does seem to be that the vast majority of people who have issues with trans rights tend to be men. So much for feminine solidarity eh?

Hi OP, do you agree there is an issue with female rights and trans- peoples rights? For example - females have got hard-fought for sex-based protections. Trans women are male - why should their want to be validated override female-only spaces.

This is just an example and I think a lot of TRAs ignore that some trans right issues will affect females.

On the idea of women being traditionally female - does that not mean that every radfem who rejects traditional gender roles loses their womanhood? Traditional femininity relies a lot more on gendered preconceptions of responsible societal behaviour (being a stay at home mum, wearing dresses, liking pink to be glib etc.) than it does on sex. Incidentally, this definition leaves a lot of trans-women being considered women and a lot of cis-women who reject traditional gender expression as not women.

Do you understand the difference between 'female' and 'feminine' OP? Because what you wrote here implies that you don't.

I'm sorry.
With your reference to "same sex attracted victims of sexual assault"
Are you suggesting that a lesbian rape victim poses a specific risk to other female rape victims? Or that lesbians in general pose similar risks to women as men? Just because they are same sex attracted?
Because I have been trying to engage with you, but if you are insinuating that then I give up!
Lesbians are female. They have the same offending pattern and the same biology as heterosexual women.

Also, "genuine victim" and "predator" are not mutually exclusive as you seem to imply. Someone can be both vulnerable AND dangerous.
A "genuine victim" who is biologically male may still make it impossible for biologically female victims to get the help they need in a rape crisis centre or hostel. Even if that male is a lovely person. There will be traumatised females who do not want a penis in their space, even if it is a "women's penis". Those women are not horrible bigots for not wanting it.
The male victims will likely have different needs anyhow, so lumping them in with females is not necessarily right for them either.

And once again, you are just plain wrong about there being "no problems".
You are ignoring the problems. That does not mean they dont exist.

@WanderingHopefully

Could you define exactly what 'cisgender' means for me please?

Also, as you refer to it above, could you just explain what legal process a man has to go through to 'self identify' as a woman?

I swear if anyone cis es me IRL they will be getting a mouthful. I wish people would pack it the fuck in on here.

@Reluctantsportsmum

Also. What about the transwoman on online dating who told me I just needed to be open minded and should suck lady dick and she would turn me lesbian? Is that acceptable?

No of course not. But one person being a creep doesn't invalidate a civil rights movement lmao.

On the idea of women being traditionally female - does that not mean that every radfem who rejects traditional gender roles loses their womanhood? Traditional femininity relies a lot more on gendered preconceptions of responsible societal behaviour

So you've got quite muddled here. Female = sex class. No traditional about it, just fixed. Femininity = gendered behaviours associated with the female sex class. GC feminism rejects the confines of gendered expectations and says women are not merely a set of stereotypes and nor are men. Broaden the bandwidth of each sex rather than take a surgeons knife to perfectly healthy bodies.

Give me a definition of woman that is anything other than adult human female and I'll show you a list of sexist stereotypes.

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?

They don’t. But sex is sex, tranwome are biologically male, and women’s spaces are for biological women, for many reason.

1. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?

Disorders of sexual development aren’t part of the trans discussion.

1. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

Caster Semenya has a DSD as above.

A male is someone who is born with xy and male sex organs.
A woman is someone born with xx and female sex organs.

As simple as that. You cannot identify your way out of it.

People can dress how they like, be called what they like, and have every right to be treated how they want to be treated.

They cannot change sex, whatever they do either surgically or not.

DSD are a different issue and should not be included. Every case is different and where biological sex is not clear cut then it’s up to the individual. Same as any genetic issue, it’s the individuals choice whether to have corrective or plastic surgery.

You might find this website useful OP. It archives crimes committed in the UK by individuals who state they are trans. Rather a lot, and rather violent and sexual in nature I would say. Also, rather more than I would expect given the very small percentage of the population who are trans. Unfortunately, because I am aware of the existence of such individuals, I do not wish to just give everyone the benefit of the doubt and relax safeguards.

transcrimeuk.com/2017/11/16/trans-homicides-in-the-uk-a-closer-look-at-the-numbers/

@AvocadoBathroom

Your mum sounds fantastic, a well informed feminist with strong views around child safeguarding and the protection of women.

Do you still live with her? Does she cook you Xmas dinner?

I feel sorry for your mum OP. It must be exhausting and tedious to have to deal with your disrespect and disdain.

Funnily enough I cooked it this year (as I have for about 6 years or so now). I've gained a new found respect for her for being on this site every day, after about five hours as a member I've wanted to blow my brains out about four times