I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

Pages back I asked the OP to explain this statement that she made:

unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives.

predictably there was tumbleweed.

As you are engaging in this thread @whoamongstus perhaps you could enlighten me as to this statement you made:

I hope you come back to the thread, it's nice to see a more progressive approach on here.

What is progressive about the TRA agenda?

Also, I’m not a cis woman. I’m a woman.

I don’t need a qualifier.

Thanks.

@334bu

What evidence do you have that the subset of the male sex who identify as women are less likely to be violent or sexually abusive to females than other males?

Well, if you look at the statistics, areas that have allowed for de facto/de iure self-id access to single-sex spaces have not seen a spike in sex assaults or rapes of any kind. In addition, according to an FOI request, there have been zero assaults or rapes by transgender prisoners of cisgender women in single sex prisons.

I don't have access to the FOI at the moment, but here is a survey of the former evidence: link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z
Incidentally, these sort of trans-protective laws allowing access for them have existed in some municipalities since 1989 (in Minneapolis, MN I believe), and there has been no rise in sex assaults as a result.

@whoamongstus

Really enjoying the weird poems and song lyrics people are writing, that seems like a normal thing to do.

OP, I am in a similar position with a female relative (not my mum, though). Her main response is that I don't know what I'm talking about and I'll change my mind - which I've seen a lot of on this thread. The condescension is maddening - assuming that women who don't agree are simply not informed enough yet is a very frustrating point of view, and disenfranchising in itself. I hope you come back to the thread, it's nice to see a more progressive approach on here.

What's a woman?

@whoamongstus

Really enjoying the weird poems and song lyrics people are writing, that seems like a normal thing to do.

OP, I am in a similar position with a female relative (not my mum, though). Her main response is that I don't know what I'm talking about and I'll change my mind - which I've seen a lot of on this thread. The condescension is maddening - assuming that women who don't agree are simply not informed enough yet is a very frustrating point of view, and disenfranchising in itself. I hope you come back to the thread, it's nice to see a more progressive approach on here.

I guess you had to be there. The songs were a result of 20 or so pages of people avoiding to engage by refusing to answer simple questions. The questions are listed on this thread. It would not be an unreasonable request for you to address them.

Hey everyone! I just got off from a long journey so can actually go about answering all your queries now

we can welcome trans women into women's spaces. Which happens anyway. Largely without incident.

How do I tell the difference between a transwoman with a beard like Alex Drummond, who is allowed in women's spaces, and another male with a beard who isn't a transwoman and shouldn't be in there?

It would be wrong to ask them to whip out their certificates at the door, so how do we know who is genuine and who isn't?

I think that the abuse you have received has been outside of safe spaces does not mean that such spaces are invalid

Rather the reverse, opening such spaces up increases opportunity for bad people. Why make violence and abuse easier? We need to eliminate it not support it

I would point out that although in the uk only around half of gym changing rooms are unisex , more than 90% of assaults in gym changing rooms are in the unisex ones

Also, many women will self exclude if such spaces are not made available, yet the original point was to ensure women could be fully included in society

None of the above is about transpeople. Simply about the reality of sex.

on my assigned gender at birth.

No-one is ^assigned a gender at birth* that is risible nonsense.

Place marking to read this later

there have been zero assaults or rapes by transgender prisoners of cisgender women in single sex prisons.

Karen White is just a figment of imagination then?

And the female prisoner taking the MOJ to court because of sexual assault by a TW prisoner in a UK jail is also a figment of imagination?

Actually I do think that in restrictive societies and families some people are assigned a gender the moment their sex is known

It's not nice, but it does happen unfortunately

"Unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities, research by The Sunday Times shows. Almost 90% of reported sexual assaults, harassment and voyeurism in swimming pool and sports-centre changing rooms happen in unisex facilities, which make up less than half the total."

Article

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk

//

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Well I guess if they were single sex prisons there would not be any transgender assaults. By definition, prisons become mixed sex as soon as they put transwomen in with women.

Hi OP.
I am biologically female.

I do not have, nor do I want to be part of a "woman gender". Honestly, I have no idea what that even means and have never seen an explanation that doesnt rely of ridiclous male stereotyping of what a women should be, in their opinion.

So can you explain what I have in common with a transwoman that makes us the same, but different from every other male?

@RedDogsBeg

there have been zero assaults or rapes by transgender prisoners of cisgender women in single sex prisons.

Karen White is just a figment of imagination then?

And the female prisoner taking the MOJ to court because of sexual assault by a TW prisoner in a UK jail is also a figment of imagination?

US posters possibly

there have been zero assaults or rapes by transgender prisoners of cisgender women in single sex prisons

You will find, in the UK, that this is incorrect.

@TimetohittheroadJack

Questions for you: 1) Are you happy for trans women to take part in women’s sport? Even though by physiological they are bigger stronger and faster meaning women can not win and are likely to be injured? 2) are you ok with a trans woman, complete with penis to be placed in a women’s jail, full of vulnerable women?

Answers for you :

1. see points above
2. intersex is nothing to do with gender, it’s a medical condition. Let’s not conflate the two
3. A women is an human adult female. I have no idea what Caster Semenya condition is, and quite frankly I find discussing a single persons medical condition unacceptable. Plus , see point 2, being intersex is nothing to do with gender, it’s to do with sex.

I'll address all sports related queries here - I generally think that transpeople should be able to compete as cispeople but with certain safeguards to ensure they have medically as well as socially transitioned, more to ensure fairness than anything. It is fair to say that a non-medically transitioned trans-woman would outcompete the average cisgender woman in a lot of sports, but equally it is scientifically illiterate to say that hormone therapy doesn't massively affect someone's athletic ability. It should be case by case. Incidentally on the injury point - as a big rugby fan I often make the point that Faf de Klerk, a 5'7" fly half who weighs barely anything, is allowed to play against 6'6" second rows who weigh the same as a bus. Particularly with physical sports, there is an element of mismatched size and injury risk in it anyway. Boxing and MMA make more sense to be more heavily policed in that regard.

As for prisons, the statistics show that trans-women have not committed sex assaults in prison, and don't pose a risk to vulnerable inmates. I'd happily have all rapists, regardless of gender identity, sequestered off into their own isolated wards anyway (failing their execution of course), but the stats do not belly a risk to women inmates.

Mine is simple, a man with gender dysphoria isn't a woman however they feel inside and therefore should not be in women's spaces.

The mantra TWAW has caused more damage than help the trans cause. Also moving to self id is damaging to trans people. When a lot of people seem to be taking the piss and a lot of seemingly mentally ill people are self iding as trans, especially men, rather than getting the help they need. I see a lot trans women on twitter threatening women with their 'lady dick' and these are again damaging people in the real world who are trans and do have gender dysphoria.

I am happy to accept trans woman as trans woman but they are not female. But men should be made to accept them in their spaces, rather than the other way round.

there have been zero assaults or rapes by transgender prisoners of cisgender women in single sex prisons.

Wrong. Here’s one example.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

US posters possibly Ah yes, the US where the rights of women are a beacon for us all.

OP, single sex spaces are not only for safety which is a paramount concern they are also for the privacy and dignity of the users.

Thanks Hecates. That was my post, and I'm not about to start on my often horrendous experiences in the past. Any transpeople I haven't noticed are not what I was referring to, clearly.

I just came to say clearly OP didn't want a discussion, has just bitch-plopped and run. And has no posting history, or claimed a name change, all things that makes my round the blocked face go

In Norway they allowed self id on birth certificates 4 years ago. Within 2 years there was a 400% spike in female crime. Any comment on that OP? Or is that another one of your fictional 'zero' evidence cases?