I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

In addition, according to an FOI request, there have been zero assaults or rapes by transgender prisoners of cisgender women in single sex prisons.

That's simply untrue. For example, Karen White assaulted two women in a women's prison.

Well, if you look at the statistics, areas that have allowed for de facto/de iure self-id access to single-sex spaces have not seen a spike in sex assaults or rapes of any kind.

womanmeanssomething.com/targetstudy/

What does Caster Semenya have to do with trans issues?

Hi borandukht

I'm really excited to answer your question, because I think that years ago I would have been in your shoes. I grew up very much admiring the likes of Candy Darling, April Ashley and those pioneering transexuals (not meaning to be offensive using that term, that's how they identified). I went to a lot of what would now be considered gender queer clubs and had no problem at all with blokes / trans women in toilets.
I think, to be honest, I had NO IDEA what feminism was until I had kids at the age of 37 and my high-flying career, sporting achievements, and freewheeling attitude to life was forced out of me along with my children (and some of my organs, don't ask). I had identified as a feminist for years, but even I was very shocked at how quickly disadvantaged I became, compared to my husband, as a direct result of biology.

So, here are my answers:
1/ I don't believe that transwomen pose a threat to me personally in any of my spaces. However, by broadening the definition of "women" to include men, you've let men in. And men do pose a theat, which I know myself after being sexually assaulted. I believe men should stay the fuck out of women's spaces and the law as it stands offers protection.
2/Intersex women fit into my feminism wherever they like. Intersex women have asked to be left out of this and I respect their wishes. Interesex women aren't trans.
3/What makes a woman? Biology. "Bottom surgery" (did you really type that with a straight face?) is just plastic surgery, it's not changing any underlying biological facts. I don't know what Caster's biologcal make up is, so I can't say if she's a woman or not. Her doctors know and I sincerely hope that the athletics authorities have put her in the correct category, otherwise she will have stolen medals from other women. Which would be unfair.

Mate, I do pole fitness, I know the men that do it are better than me in many respects. their strength and biology means they can perform harder moves with more stamina. Women are generally more flexible, we have that advantage, but thankfully my sport has different sex catagories. Everyone wins. I also recognise that these disadvantages disappear in some sports, so I would never suggest female rugby players have an edge. Your train of thought is very limiting if you only consider your own sport.

41% of transwomen in prison are there for sexual offences. That's unbelievably disproportionate.

Attacks in jail:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8303753/Transgender-inmates-carried-seven-sex-attacks-women-jail.html

Seems like if anyone is misinformed, it's you OP.

[quote borandukht]Hey everyone! I just got off from a long journey so can actually go about answering all your queries now

It is fair to say that a non-medically transitioned trans-woman would outcompete the average cisgender woman in a lot of sports, but equally it is scientifically illiterate to say that hormone therapy doesn't massively affect someone's athletic ability.

Wrong. Here’s the link to the latest research on transwomen in sport used by World Rugby to address the issue.

resources.world.rugby/worldrugby/document/2020/10/09/a67e3cc3-7dea-4f1e-b523-2cba1073729d/Transgender-Research_Summary-of-data_ENGLISH-09.10.2020.pdf

OP

Here's a thought. Instead of talking to women, why not go bother someone else's talk to a few men.
Ask them if they are happy to give up all single sex spaces that they currently have. If they would be happy for any one identifying as a transman to use all their facilities. Would they feel comfortable? Would they think the person was male or female? Would they be happy for such a person to carry out intimate searches? Would they be happy to sleep with a transwoman?

Because a lot of men I know are not happy with those ideas.

And what the heck is "bottom surgery ". Making another hole doesn't make you a woman.

As for prisons, the statistics show that trans-women have not committed sex assaults in prison, and don't pose a risk to vulnerable inmates

That's incorrect. There are very many examples of this in the UK - you don't have to look very far to find examples. If you have statistics that say otherwise I say - look at the source of those statistics and ask yourself what skin that source has in the game.

You were a fool to ever leave this thread
While you were gone the terfs got in my head
They said it was sad
But your mum can't be your dad
And now you're back to tell them that they're wrong and bad hey hey

Reunited with the goady OP
Reunited and so now we'll see
The transphobic mums
Get schooled by woke little 'uns
We all are so delighted
That we're reunited hey hey

I’ve never understood why gender critical and gender non conforming haven’t found more common ground on here.

Fundamentally to me they both try to break down rules, roles and expectations that oppress people. Perhaps not from exactly the same angle, but is it really that different?

Can’t see the forest for the trees. And who is benefitting from that war? It’s not GC nor GNC people.

I hate it when divide and rule is successful at making the oppressed kill one another for scraps.

Medically transitioned transwomen retain advantages over women in sporting terms. The muscular advantage over women only reduces by minimal amounts and they are still taller, and have larger lung capacity.

Hey everyone! I just got off from a long journey so can actually go about answering all your queries

Not sure long journeys should be encouraged in the current climate

The FOI request is wrong.
There have been assaults of female prisoners by transwomen within female prisons. That is true in the UK even without self ID, when there are relatively few transwomen in the female estate.
But of course, you will discount those as "a small minority that doesn't prove anything"
(Never mind that, in the very least, it proves you are factually wrong in the assertion you just made about there being zero assaults).

Also, we cannot ever know how well these things work without good data. So if crimes must be recorded according to self identified gender, then how will we know if an increase in woman on woman assaults is caused by a change in the definition of woman, or by females getting more violent?
How will we know if vulnerable women feel uncomfortable with the presence of males in hostels, prisons, hospitals, mental health units, and rape counselling services if we discourage them from even admitting their concerns? If we dismiss them all as bigots who need to he reeducated?

To see a problem you need to actually look.
To hear people, you need to actually listen to them.
Closing your eyes and ears to that which conflicts with your beliefs is easy and comfortable though.

I have absolutely NEVER felt that I am at a disadvantage to men when competing, based solely on my assigned gender at birth.

And no one is arguing with you about equestrian sports. You seem very keen to apply this to ALL sports. Surely you have the basic understanding of other sports?
Links have been posted to the latest research that has been sent to the IOC and had been used by sporting federations to set standards.

And other readers might find this link enlightening,

boysvswomen.com

@WhereYouLeftIt

"So, I'm here to listen."

Really? Looks to me that you're here to collect screenshots.

This. At least be a bit more subtle about it.

@Apollo440

Seems like if anyone is misinformed, it's you OP.

Yep

When you grow up you will realise that people who disagree with you are not necessarily mad or bad.

Oh dear OP, you seem extremely poorly informed on all sorts of things. Perhaps you're used to caring less about the views of women and their lived experiences because you're from the US OP? I notice you've shared US stats. Women have a really tough time of it over there when it comes to maternity and reproductive rights to name just a couple of areas and roe v Wade is hanging by a thread. I think growing up in a society where feminism stalled some time ago and where women's voices are devalued probably makes it difficult to listen to your Mum and take her seriously. I'd recommend you do sit down and really listen to her, she seems like a very wise woman.

For the OP, this one is from the US.

news.wttw.com/2020/02/19/lawsuit-female-prisoner-says-she-was-raped-transgender-inmate

This is from the UK.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8303753/Transgender-inmates-carried-seven-sex-attacks-women-jail.html

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/oct/28/ex-prisoner-challenges-moj-policy-after-alleged-sexual-assault-by-trans-woman

insidetime.org/trans-sex-attacks/

But yes - if you ignore or dismiss all the inconvenient data, evidence, "isolated incidents" and the voices of those who speak up, then there is no problem with self ID in any way in any place at any time and there never will be.

A former prison governor Rhona Hotchkiss has warned that the Scottish self ID law poses a risk.