I'm a young feminist; I cannot understand your Gender Critical positions

[borandukht]

Hello all, I'm writing this because I'm at the end of my tether with my mother, who has become engulfed in the gender critical discourse mainly thanks to this website (cheer or weep for that depending on your view). She had originally been very comfortable with transgender rights, and given we have a closeish relative who is transgender too, I've never felt put out or uncomforted by what the trans-rights movement was all about.

After absorbing what you lot have to say about the matter (in general, I know there are some pro-trans feminists on here) she's completely changed her tune and frankly it's becoming exhausting and absurd. I had never really listened to the arguments of GC feminists before the last year or so, and frankly after listening to them I have become ever more convinced that you are unfortunately gravely misinformed on a variety of topics regarding transgender individuals, the goals of the rights movement, and the resultant society that values trans-lives. Some of the repugnant transphobia I've seen online further makes it hard for me to value this movement's "genuine concerns" as truly genuine. What made me snap was yesterday seeing a comment on here stating that the Daily Mail was more feminist than the Guardian. I read neither, because they're both toilet paper, but anyone who says anything so blatantly obtuse to reality clearly has a very specific, narrow view of feminism predicated entirely on not liking GNC people - I don't see how anyone who's read any Daily Mail article ever could say that without laughing.

So, I'm here to listen. GC people always say they just want an open discussion, and I am happy to oblige. There will be no hate, nothing like that. I will try and engage you directly, and respond to why you have these positions as fairly and equitably as I can. Hitherto the arguments I have read/heard from GC's online and in print have been unconvincing, but here at least I can respond directly and try and start this discussion that is so desirable.

If you want specific starter questions (god I sound like my lecturers), think about stuff like:

1. Why do transwomen represent such a threat to you in women's spaces, in your mind?
2. Where do intersex women fit into your feminism?
3. What makes a woman? If it is genitals, does a transwoman with bottom surgery count in your mind? If it's chromosomes is Caster Semenya a man?

I hope to read your answers soon. In the meantime, merry post-Christmas!

I have to admit, I haven't RTFT.I can only imagine that it's gone like every single one of these predictably goes.

But I am sitting here chuckling at the thought of some young woman being aghast and Telling Mummy Off Because Mummy Thinks For Herself.

The whole movement feels like the epitome of Mummy Saying No and all the toddlers having a huge tantrum.

So the fact that I know (as does she) that my daughter wouldn’t get her place on the GB squad if they allowed self identifying transwomen into the women’s squad, that’s just scaremongering?

Really enjoying the weird poems and song lyrics people are writing, that seems like a normal thing to do.

OP, I am in a similar position with a female relative (not my mum, though). Her main response is that I don't know what I'm talking about and I'll change my mind - which I've seen a lot of on this thread. The condescension is maddening - assuming that women who don't agree are simply not informed enough yet is a very frustrating point of view, and disenfranchising in itself. I hope you come back to the thread, it's nice to see a more progressive approach on here.

@whoamongstus

Interesting that a PP says OP must not be GC because she's not experienced as much 'having her spaces intruded upon' and hasn't been 'round the block as much' as her mum. You have probably shared spaces with many trans women and had no idea, you do know that don't you?

What is your definition of a "trans woman"?

What a surprise, the op hasn't been back.

Id love one of the earnest patronising people to tell me what they think a woman is, exactly.

I have shared spaces with transwomen. Well, that I know of, two, to be precise.

They were clear they were transwomen, not women, and they were valued work colleagues.

What I’m not so keen on is being told I have to suck lady dick and having my daughter potential booted off an Olympic and commonwealth games squad because of self identity as a policy.

*potentially

Well that’s ok because I don’t actually need you to understand my position.
I know what I know to be true but I’m not looking for converts
You see OP, when you get older you realise it’s ok for people not to share your opinion. They don’t need to be “cancelled” or threatened or re- educated, they can just not agree

And I agree with @Hoppinggreen. At the age of 51 I don’t care if someone agrees with me or not. I can disagree and be respectful of their position. And if they don’t agree with me well that’s ok.

But I will not allow my boundaries to be crossed.

I owe no one sex. No one. Ever. And I don’t HAVE to consider having sex with anyone that I don’t want to

@whoamongstus

Really enjoying the weird poems and song lyrics people are writing, that seems like a normal thing to do.

OP, I am in a similar position with a female relative (not my mum, though). Her main response is that I don't know what I'm talking about and I'll change my mind - which I've seen a lot of on this thread. The condescension is maddening - assuming that women who don't agree are simply not informed enough yet is a very frustrating point of view, and disenfranchising in itself. I hope you come back to the thread, it's nice to see a more progressive approach on here.

I find the belief in gender identity regressive not progressive. An adult human female is a woman no matter how she dresses/behaves/feels. The same for adult human males. Believing stereotypes are innate (I've never seen a definition of gender identity which doesn't rely on stereotypes) is the opposite of progressive.

Totally what HoppingGreen said ☝️.

We're grown women with our own brains. We're not a "you lot". Everyone on this thread has explained it all in many ways really comprehensively. Don't agree? Fine. We're not that bothered.

You never really wanted to engage anyway though did you. I'll look out for the childish little screenshots in the Twitter playground.

If you are genuine OP, why not just read the many many previous threads where all this is discussed in great detail?

I think the only really relevant question is 'what makes a woman'. For me, it's DNA and natal biology. Nothing else at all. I think you have to be very gender stereotyped to believe you can 'identify' as a woman as you then have to believe a whole lot of debunked nonsense about what 'women' feel, like do, etc. We can debate whether female only spaces are necessary, sure, but if we conclude they are (and lots of women believe they are which is not surprising given how their BIOLOGY disadvantages them) then they are spaces for women, not men who 'identify as women' (whatever that means - no-one has ever explained that in any meaningful way which does not hinge on antiquated stereotypes). I don't care what anyone wears, does (if it's legal) and lives like. We can't move away from our bodies though and having surgery to change the outward appearance of your body is just that really and does not change the gender expectations and stereotypes that were forced on you from birth or some aspects of your biology. Women are not disadvantaged because of how they identify and the idea of there being a binary sense of male and female against which non-binary compares (and indeed can't even 'live' without) is offensive nonsense.

@whoamongstus

Really enjoying the weird poems and song lyrics people are writing, that seems like a normal thing to do.

OP, I am in a similar position with a female relative (not my mum, though). Her main response is that I don't know what I'm talking about and I'll change my mind - which I've seen a lot of on this thread. The condescension is maddening - assuming that women who don't agree are simply not informed enough yet is a very frustrating point of view, and disenfranchising in itself. I hope you come back to the thread, it's nice to see a more progressive approach on here.

Not going to answer those questions then. Much like the OP.

@PotholeParadies

Bambam2019

You bring up horses.

As I understand it, in horse racing, there is a separate race from the Kentucky Derby (which is open to both male and female horses over three), called the Kentucky Oaks, which is female only. Thoughts on why that might be?

I mean my first thought would be because maybe it draws in crowds, for whatever reason, such as women supporting other women, (but that not being the only reason) so has good sponsorship opportunities etc. So why do you think nearly all equestrian events are run as mixed sex classes? I have absolutely NEVER felt that I am at a disadvantage to men when competing, based solely on my assigned gender at birth.

Really enjoying the weird poems and song lyrics people are writing, that seems like a normal thing to do.

Glad you are enjoying them. Just passing the time waiting for the OP to return and debate as promised. Feel free to join in.

The condescension is maddening - assuming that women who don't agree are simply not informed enough yet is a very frustrating point of view, and disenfranchising in itself.

This is exactly what the OP did.

Every time I think of you
I always catch my breath
And I'm still waiting here
for my civilised debate
And I'm wondering why you left
And there's a question that's raging
Through these Mumsnets boards tonight

I hear your mum has been a meanie
And she's old and just doesn't know shit
She spent her years taking care of you
But how dare she be a feminist
And that's my patience that's breaking
On this Mumsnet discussion board tonight

I ain't missing you OP
Since you've been gone away
I ain't missing you
Cos I know
You've got nothing worthwhile to say

@DemolitionBarbie

Let me translate your OP:

Dear old bints, I think you're as stupid as my mum, why don't you explain yourselves to me at length?

... and tell you why you are wrong

Hecates of course I have no idea what specifically PP is referring to. But the risk of violence, assault, indecent exposure, sexual abuse and so on are not limited to spaces designed for born women. I have been sexually assaulted, seen adult men expose themselves, experienced a range of horrible things that many women have - none of these took place in protected spaces. The lack of entry to women's spaces is not what's holding back horrible people from doing horrible things.

I see it like this:

• we can make stricter rules for women only spaces, including restricting access for trans women. This does nothing to reduce the aggregated risk to cis women (as a lack of access to these spaces has not ever been a factor in whether or not women are assaulted or harmed by anyone) and excludes trans women.
• we can welcome trans women into women's spaces. Which happens anyway. Largely without incident. And focus on better education, more stringent punishment for male violence, a better legal system to deter sexual assault and a better support system for women (both born women and trans women) who are affected by it.

"The condescension is maddening."

The very same person wrote

"You have probably shared spaces with many trans women and had no idea, you do know that don't you?"

Is see irony isn't dead yet.

@whoamongstus what about female sport?

Really enjoying the weird poems and song lyrics people are writing, that seems like a normal thing to do.

Thanks @whoamongstus, that last one was in your honour.

Who do you mean by transwomen whoamongstus?

The condescension is maddening - assuming that women who don't agree are simply not informed enough yet is a very frustrating point of view, and disenfranchising in itself

This is exactly what the OP did

Absolutely, pompous was a word used upthread which fits nicely

Also. What about the transwoman on online dating who told me I just needed to be open minded and should suck lady dick and she would turn me lesbian? Is that acceptable?