Would you ok your son wearing a dress?

[KristinaJup]

Candace Owens recently tweeted (in response to Harry Styles wearing a dress on a magazine cover) "Bring Back Manly Men".. amongst other things.

Who really cares if a guy wears tutus and glittery dresses? Prince was hot af in his heels and Makeup.

Imo I would have no problem with it at all if my son wanted to put on a skirt but the tweet gained a lot of traction and I saw quite a few memes and lots of fingers pointed at feminism for "ruining men"

If we carry on this way the next thing will be....women should not be wearing trousers! What do you think?

Jumping on the current nonsensical bandwagon. Are you alluding to nonsense like if a boy wants to play with dolls/like pink/wear a dress, then he must have been born in the wrong body? That nonsense?
No, the nonsense that it's fine for a boy to wear a dress outdoors.

it's only not fine for a boy to wear a dress outdoor because people like you say so. No rational reason other that people like you think it's off

What does wearing a long piece of fabric that doesn't attach at the crotch have to do with "acting badly"? Also FWIW, the "normal values of society" for a long time were hardcore racism, sexism, homophobia etc so there are occasionally positive results of ignoring the status quo.
I did not say that a boy wearing a dress is acting badly. I was reacting to the poster who said that 'The idea of stopping your child from acting in a way they chose simply because other people might act badly as a result is a pretty crap way to bring up your child.'
And of course I realise that the "normal values of society" for a long time were hardcore racism, sexism, homophobia...'
I am not commenting on that; only the fact that in today's society, it is not acceptable for boys to wear dresses.

I am not commenting on that; only the fact that in today's society, it is not acceptable for boys to wear dresses

And I hope one day it will be acceptable. Because it's arbitrary

@midgebabe

Teenagers have used clothes to express themselves since the 1940's.

Yes, and something fairly unique to well-off, consumer based cultures, at least in the way we do it. Through most of history most people didn't have many options.

They grow out of it as they mature, or tone it down as they realise that they are themselves no matter what they wear, and other people are just themselves no matter what they wear.

This idea "we have to let kids choose whatever appeals or they aren't expressing themselves" is a terrible message in so many ways.

But the idea that we have to control something that is very superficial is even worse

@midgebabe

But the idea that we have to control something that is very superficial is even worse

I'm not sure what is being "controlled" though.

Most people have some opportunity to choose clothes that they like, at least to an extent.

Most people have limits on that, too. Which come from financial means, prescribed things like uniforms or dress codes, and social customs.

In our culture, which already offers far more variation than most as far as clothing choices, you can often (but not always) bend these expectations, or even subvert them, without a real penalty.

Usually, when people do bend and subvert thm, it's not because they have some burning desire to dress that way, or even any more because there is some really unfair disadvantageous expectation. (I'd say the main example of that is very sexualised women's clothing but it is possible to avoid those unless perhaps you are in the entertainment industry.)

People choose to bend and subvert the (rather lax) rules around clothing because they want to make a point about the rules, or be seen to be edgy. So that is also a choice, to corollary being that if you do it, people might think you have a particular attitude to rules.

There is a ton of flexibility in all of this. Unless a child is poor, they are not going to have a whole lot of experience with people telling them they need to wear x. y, or , and just get over themselves. School uniforms are by far going to be the most universal experience of that.

Then you have these parents telling their kids, oh, you are being oppressed by being forced to wear a uniform, by the fact that there is a dress code that disallows showing your belly button at school, by the social convention that men don't wear skirts. Somehow these things mean you can't express your true self.

It's no wonder you have a bunch of kids that think their preference for more culturally masculine or feminine clothing means something significant about their "identity", and it will damage them if they aren't able to indulge it whenever they like.

Having to make do with a certain amount of practicality and social conventions which we all know could be different, and realising that you are still ok is a generally positive experience in terms of maturity. And yes, social conventions may change, but there will always be social conventions - there isn't some utopia where we don't live within that kind of cultural environment.

I don't really get why older boys would want to wear skirts? I get that girls wearing trousers is useful because skirts ride up and can be impractical but why do boys want to wear skirts (obviously I understand if they're trans, into drag or whatever) but I don't really see the advantage day to day (which is why I'm always in trousers). Skirts and dresses are generally designed to show off the curves of a woman's body aren't they?
At 3/4/5 no problem, I get dressing up is fun. I remember seeing though on tv a man who wore a tight, short womans skirt and high heels to work everyday and I just didn't get it. High heels and short tight skirt just aren't comfortable IMO, why would a man want to wear them?? I get it might be a sexual fetish but then why wear it to work? I get the fun of drag or if you are trans but it was literally just his bottom half and I just couldn't really understand what the point was. I guess he just liked it which is fine, I just couldn't really understand why.

I suspect it's people imposing rigid ideas in dress , that a boy can't wear a dress, will be more harmful to a persons identity and feeling of how well they fit a gender expectation. The more you build boxes around people the more people will reject those boxes.

Some people like wearing skirts, and dresses. Some people find them more comfortable, cooler or warmer or less rubbing or anything

I don't personally but I can accept that some people prefer them

@KarenMarlow3

Jumping on the current nonsensical bandwagon. Are you alluding to nonsense like if a boy wants to play with dolls/like pink/wear a dress, then he must have been born in the wrong body? That nonsense? No, the nonsense that it's fine for a boy to wear a dress outdoors.

Apart from your mythical bullies, why is it wrong? Is it going to make his willy drop off? Is he going to freeze to death? Is everyone going to judge your parenting? Is he going to grow up to be a hooligan? I'm really rather unclear what you think is wrong with it.

Neither of my DCs are really much into frilly clothing but both went through a tutu phase. DS was a bit jealous that the girls at preschool dance got to wear frilly skirts so brought the tutu along - as well as being sure to put on the "dancing skirt" for rocking to the radio at home. Nursery didn't see fit to express shock at him dressing up as Elsa while there but he also put his muslin comforter on his head to have "Elsa hair".

He does have SEN but I don't think it's got anything to do with having a "dancing skirt".
As he was 4 at the time, and we don't live in a completely macho society, nobody bullied him.
And his willy is intact.

Usually, when people do bend and subvert thm, it's not because they have some burning desire to dress that way, or even any more because there is some really unfair disadvantageous expectation.

I remember a thread a while back about a school where, in an attempt to engender equality, they had banned skirts altogether. No non-trouser uniform option. Lots of posters were up in arms about it because skirts are much more comfortable in summer, because some girls hate the way they look in trousers, because they shouldn't have rights removed from them to make things fair etc.

There are lots of reasons people want to wear skirts and dresses. They're very comfortable and practical garments.

I don't really get why older boys would want to wear skirts?
My two are younger, but they liked skirts for dancing in, because of the way they feel. I can imagine a male dancer wanting to coordinate their moves with their clothing.
My granny used to say that just as some women looked really, er, odd in trousers (her opinion) some men would also be flattered by skirts.
As well as the above re skirts being cooler in summer.

I would think for older boys it’s a style/fashion thing and going with a tribe, just like the New Romantics back in the day

If someone was trying to copy Harry Styles, I would be concerned whatever they were wearing.

@FourPlatinumRings

Usually, when people do bend and subvert thm, it's not because they have some burning desire to dress that way, or even any more because there is some really unfair disadvantageous expectation.

I remember a thread a while back about a school where, in an attempt to engender equality, they had banned skirts altogether. No non-trouser uniform option. Lots of posters were up in arms about it because skirts are much more comfortable in summer, because some girls hate the way they look in trousers, because they shouldn't have rights removed from them to make things fair etc.

There are lots of reasons people want to wear skirts and dresses. They're very comfortable and practical garments.

There are many comfortable clothes in the world, but generally speaking that is not why people choose to wear things that are counter-cultural. If people just want comfort most of the time there are plenty of options. In fact quite often counter-cultural things are less comfortable.

I remember the thread about the skirts, and I think that was a fairly silly argument WRT them. Uniforms by nature limit choices and no one has a "right" to be allowed to wear a skirt in a uniform. It was, however, also silly to eliminate them in the name of equality.

I would consider my parenting a success if my (adult) son was to wear a dress outside or inside his home. Other peoples opinion of what he wears is nothing to do with him. He would have to be secure in himself to do this, therefore I brought him up to feel secure in this world. I mean it's possible that other men would say something but he has a dry wit and for the most part could talk himself out of trouble. That trouble would happen is not a given. Fionne Orlander manages just fine.

“Skirts and dresses are generally designed to show off the curves of a woman's body aren't they?”

No.

If you want to know why a boy (or girl) might want to wear something vibrant and sparkly, in the words of Tim Rice:

“I look handsome, I look smart
I am walking work of art
Such a dazzling coat of colours
How I love my coat of many colours

It was red and yellow and green and brown
And scarlet and black and ochre and peach
And ruby and olive and violet and fawn
And lilac and gold and chocolate and mauve
And cream and crimson and silver and rose
And azure and lemon and russet and grey
And purple and white and pink and orange
And red and yellow and green and brown and
Scarlet and black and ochre and peach
And ruby and olive and violet and fawn
And lilac and gold and chocolate and mauve
And cream and crimson and silver and rose
And azure and lemon and russet and grey
And purple and white and pink and orange”

@midgebabe

As Michelle y nicely earlier

The idea of stopping your child from acting in a way they chose simply because other people might act badly as a result is a pretty crap way to bring up your child.

And to send your DC into school knowing it’s nightly lined they are going to get ridiculed/humiliated and the like.... isn’t a better way to parent..... all that just to prove a point! The poor child

highly likely

@KarenMarlow3

Today's society normally accepts that boys wear boys' clothing and girls wear girls' clothing, which includes trousers, jeans, leggings and jeggings. Society doesn't cater for boys wearing dresses. Adults who are pandering to their sons' wishes to wear a dress outdoors are 1) setting the child up for hostile stares and comments, 2) jumping on the current nonsensical bandwagon and 3) loading their sons with their own perceived politically correct agenda.

Perfectly summed up post

Indeed.

Not to mention the fact that throughout history men have worn items of clothing that were shaped like skirts (the Romans. the Greeks...) and in some cultures/countries (Middle East, Africa) men wear long robes, so this notion that trousers are the default option for manliness is pretty idiotic.

I always thought Nirvana's Kurt Cobain looked great when he wore a dress too...

@Crystalclair

The type of woman that allows her son to wear a dress is more likely than not, pushing their agenda on their poor children - feeding them to a pack of wolves all in the name of 'equality'.

I never remember my brothers, male friends or family ever asking or wanting to wear a dress!

Face it, it's you the parents, not your son wanting this.

Brainwashing at it's best.

Ummm... nope. My mum is very firmly in the "girls should wear pretty pink frilly things" school of thought. She even told me I "couldn't" buy a pack of rainbow coloured babygrows including one with VW campers on when SIL was pregnant because "what if the baby is a girl?"

Yet my brother spent a large portion of his childhood wearing my dresses. We regularly used to wear eachothers night clothes, so I'd wear his pjs and he would wear my nightie. He's now a male chauvinist manly man who wouldn't be seen dead in a skirt, except when he dressed up as a woman and was quite derogatory towards them.

My own DS2 used to wear my pretty tops as dresses around the house.

So my mother should not have sent me to school because I was being bullied ? Bizarre