Would you ok your son wearing a dress?

[KristinaJup]

Candace Owens recently tweeted (in response to Harry Styles wearing a dress on a magazine cover) "Bring Back Manly Men".. amongst other things.

Who really cares if a guy wears tutus and glittery dresses? Prince was hot af in his heels and Makeup.

Imo I would have no problem with it at all if my son wanted to put on a skirt but the tweet gained a lot of traction and I saw quite a few memes and lots of fingers pointed at feminism for "ruining men"

If we carry on this way the next thing will be....women should not be wearing trousers! What do you think?

All this crazy gender neutral shit or pushing feminine clothes on little dudes makes me so thankful I grew up in the 90s when ya mum could just bark 'don't be a wally!'

Just over 100 years ago it it wasn’t culturally appropriate for women to vote or be doctors or lawyers.

Thank goodness some women were prepared to do things that weren’t culturally appropriate, even if people talked about them behind their backs.

But what is not appropriate is to use children to score political or ideological points

@Savourysenorita

All this crazy gender neutral shit or pushing feminine clothes on little dudes makes me so thankful I grew up in the 90s when ya mum could just bark 'don't be a wally!'

I recall my own mum shouting "don't be a wally!" at my brother when he told her he was gay and the subsequent hurt it caused. "Don't be a wally!" is a perfectly acceptable answer to some things I'm sure, and it's a horrendous answer to others.

If my son said "mummy I want to wear an Elsa dress to the cinema to see Frozen 3" then I wouldn't shout "don't be a wally!" but if you would to your son then I respect that. I don't like it, and I don't get it, but he's your son not mine. And I also really appreciate that you've said endlessly that you'd tell your son not to say mean things to my son in that scenario. You're teaching acceptance of others. I just feel sad that if it was something your son wanted to explore then you would shut down the conversation and wouldn't be accepting yourself. Perhaps your views are swayed by your super woke friend you've talked about (who also makes me sad to read about).

But what is not appropriate is to use children to score political or ideological points

But no one is advocating doing that. No one on here has said we should encourage boys into dresses in order to be woke. I have a 2 month old DS and won't be putting him in dresses. If I could choose, I'd probably prefer him not to want to wear dresses, because yes, it might not be an easy road (though I'd actually be more concerned about the potential response of adults than that of his peers- my DF is a bit of a sexist bullying twat about these things, and DS is his only grandson). However, it's entirely possible that he'll see his older sister in pretty dresses, think it looks fun and want to have a go himself, and I certainly won't be telling him he can't because he's got a penis. I don't believe in limiting people because of their genitals. I'm quite surprised, in this day and age, at the amount of people who apparently do.

@ReeseWitherfork I appreciate your balanced reply and respect your opinion ps I don't agree with how your mother reacted to your brother being gay. I hope he's living a peaceful and happy life as a proud gay man.

I am probably going off at a tangent here but I don’t recall my kids making clothing requests and I certainly didn’t set clothing up as a choice. I just told them what they were wearing until they were about ten. It was the same for me growing up.

Dressing up clothes is a bit different and my brother wore a nurse’s dress and it was no big deal.

It feels very consumeristic that kids have to be given the choice of clothes and that their choices mean something meaningful about their personality. The whole thing just feeds into this identity lark where utter trivia is put on the same level as actual women’s rights issues.

@Stripesnomore

I am probably going off at a tangent here but I don’t recall my kids making clothing requests and I certainly didn’t set clothing up as a choice. I just told them what they were wearing until they were about ten. It was the same for me growing up.

Dressing up clothes is a bit different and my brother wore a nurse’s dress and it was no big deal.

It feels very consumeristic that kids have to be given the choice of clothes and that their choices mean something meaningful about their personality. The whole thing just feeds into this identity lark where utter trivia is put on the same level as actual women’s rights issues.

It's a fair point, we do have quite a disposable culture these days, where people will sell a pink pram and buy a blue one because their second born has different genitals to their first. Back when clothes were more expensive, people didn't have the time or money to be asking kids what they'd like to wear and they'd get shoved in whatever hand me downs were available. I remember my mum telling me she never got to wear clothes that had been bought just for her- they belonged to her cousin and older sister first. However, I don't see the harm, if you are buying clothing for your kid anyway, in letting them have a say in what they wear. They're not dolls after all, they do have an opinion. Why not let them choose? I don't think said clothing necessarily says much about their personality though. I've never been one to ascribe much significance to sartorial choices. People tend to just pick what they like.

The reasons not to let them choose? None that I feel massively strongly about, but it encourages them to think clothing is more important than it is and to make superficial judgements about themselves and other people based on what they are wearing. It puts pressure on poor kids whose parents can’t afford to buy them what the other kids are asking to wear.

The other issue would be that they are kids and might make inappropriate clothing choices, so it becomes an unnecessary negotiation.

Even the attitude that they are not dolls sets up the idea that the primary purpose of clothing is decorative rather than practical.

It’s not an important area of life to have an opinion about. It falls into that parenting style where it is all about the child’s identity and individuality and doesn’t encourage the child to respect their parents’ guidance and authority.

I guess for me it's about empathy. My mother hated having no choice over what she wore- it made her feel very self-conscious as a child because she didn't feel her clothes suited her and didn't like how she looked in them. Consequently, she always let us have a say. We didn't always get our own way and we weren't wealthy, so there were no named brands or anything like that (a fair bit of it came from charity shops) but we would at least be heard and listened to, even if we didn't always get our way. I think there's value in allowing children that.

What does that have to do with empathy?

I’m also not really talking about disposability. I am talking about consumerism - where people think that what they buy reflects who they are.

Empathy - the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
I'm assuming FourPlatinumRings meant that she appreciated her own mother taking her feelings into account when it came to personal identity, which I also empathise with.

I’d be fine with it. Not so worried about reading as DS is 5’10 and built like a rugby player. He used to wear nail polish, and “do his make up” as he was with me a lot and those are my thing! He did get mocked for nail polish at a play park once, but he didn’t care at all.

As long as he’s comfortable being male, in all its guises, I’m happy, no matter what he wears.

I'd actively discourage it as a DC his choice as a young adult.
There was an Elsa dress thread weekly at one time here.
There are many make up ranges launching for men the clothes are more feminine maybe in 10 years we'll all be gender free. No wait there is a label for that already.

@ncbby

Empathy - the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. I'm assuming FourPlatinumRings meant that she appreciated her own mother taking her feelings into account when it came to personal identity, which I also empathise with.

Indeed, thank you.

I don’t think that is about empathy. The mother had decided what decisions she thought it was important for her child to have a say in based on her experiences of what mattered to her.

Empathy would be more about noticing what things in life were particularly important to your child based on what your child says and how they behave.

Empathy would be more about noticing what things in life were particularly important to your child based on what your child says and how they behave.

And as Rings has said, it was particularly important to her.

@Stripesnomore

I don’t think that is about empathy. The mother had decided what decisions she thought it was important for her child to have a say in based on her experiences of what mattered to her.

Empathy would be more about noticing what things in life were particularly important to your child based on what your child says and how they behave.

Empathy is about putting yourself into the shoes of others and considering their feelings.

Sorry, I didn’t see anywhere where she had said her clothing was particularly important to her. I thought she had said it was important to her mother as a child.

I think we understand empathy to mean the same thing rings.

It is about being able to understand and feel another person’s feelings as if you were in their place.

Sorry, I didn’t see anywhere where she had said her clothing was particularly important to her.

I read it in: we would at least be heard and listened to, even if we didn't always get our way. I think there's value in allowing children that. But to be fair maybe that's me reading it wrong, not sure.

Oh good. So, for me, if you've got a kid who has an opinion on their clothing, I don't think it does harm to ask them for it. Not many people like having their feelings discounted, particularly when it comes to something that mainly affects them.

Either way, it is an important point that it is a generational influence.

My mum was very much a Tom boy, had no interest in clothes, much to the disappointment of her mother. When we were kids, my mum never really discussed anything to do with clothes, we wore hand me downs etc. So when it became a parent it never really crossed my mind to have conversations about clothes.

Food on the other hand, I would always give as much choice as possible. I feel it is somehow to do with bodily autonomy and remember kids being forced to eat stuff at school. But then other people thought I was crazy for allowing kids so much food choice like a short order cook.

So I guess we all prioritise where kids are allowed the most autonomy based on a mixture of our experiences and what seems to matter most to them.

@Stripesnomore

Either way, it is an important point that it is a generational influence.

My mum was very much a Tom boy, had no interest in clothes, much to the disappointment of her mother. When we were kids, my mum never really discussed anything to do with clothes, we wore hand me downs etc. So when it became a parent it never really crossed my mind to have conversations about clothes.

Food on the other hand, I would always give as much choice as possible. I feel it is somehow to do with bodily autonomy and remember kids being forced to eat stuff at school. But then other people thought I was crazy for allowing kids so much food choice like a short order cook.

So I guess we all prioritise where kids are allowed the most autonomy based on a mixture of our experiences and what seems to matter most to them.

Yes, I agree.

[quote Savourysenorita]@ReeseWitherfork I appreciate your balanced reply and respect your opinion ps I don't agree with how your mother reacted to your brother being gay. I hope he's living a peaceful and happy life as a proud gay man.[/quote]
Thank you - he is. I don't think my mum is particularly proud of her response either. She was just scared his life would be harder for it. It draws on a lot of parallels with what you've been saying on this thread with regards to bullying etc. Of course the massive fundamental difference is that being gay isn't a choice. What clothes we wear is a choice; and also, they don't become part of who we are. Whereas being gay is of course who he is. She realises that now and is very very accepting. And his life has been harder for it, but she's supported him with that.