Can someone please explain... (trans)

[WednesdayAllTheWay]

So I've been trying to follow this trans situation for a while but now having skin in the game in the form of a child (and also noting through work how more and more people are identifying as the opposite gender) I need to understand it better.
Feel slightly embarrassed asking but:

1. How exactly do the words sex and gender differ in this area?
2. What reasons do trans people give for wanting to change their physical bodies? As in what do people believe they will get from this that they couldn't get in the body they were born with?
3. What are children being taught at school about this?

Thanks!

Positrans

You transitioned as an adult, and you've mentioned having a daughter. I assume therefore that you have used your female penis to have sex and father your child.

Why then are you so keen to deny 'transgender' children the ability to enjoy having sexual relationships as adults and to have their own children?

Early transition where a child never goes through puberty will leave them infertile and with impaired sexual function. What is your motivation for campaigning for more children to be treated with these drugs with such an appalling outcome?

@midgebabe

Since I know personally that trans explor8ng children are told to play up suicide angle, I don't think any self reported survey can unfortunately be believed

You know that trans kids are in a state of high distress though right? I mean you know that gender dysphoria can be extremely intense - that the children seen at gender clinics have lots of psychological problems derived from it like anxiety and depression. Indeed it is often mentioned here that they are in a lot of distress.

So don't you think it's reasonable to assume that there are likely to be more suicide attempts in highly distressed children than in "normal" children?

And you also know that LGBT children are bullied more than straight children. That's a givcen, and you also know that bullied children are more likely to attempt suicide than children who aren't bullied. That's one of the reasons suicide rates are higher for LGBT children.

And you know that trans kids often experience family rejection. How do you think that plays into the likelihood of self harm and suicide attempts.

So even if you dispute any particular study, simple logic dictates that trans children are going to have a higher suicide attempt rate than non-trans children.

Male born individuals, can only understand what male born individuals might be yearning for.

Quite.

Before this thread draws to a conclusion I just wanted to get on the record, that although positrans has included lots of links to reputable seeming sources here, if you couldn’t be bothered to read them (and why would you ) they can be summed up thusly:

1. Too small sample, needs further investigation
2. Bullshit premise (one referred to “a female height” whatever that might be)
3. American not UK
4. Old and never been replicated
5. Inconclusive and/or overstated
6. Doesn’t say what posi says it says
7. Same link multiple times.

And maybe a couple that actually look reputable and interesting.

Well, I've been mainly lurking, this thread has been a real eye opener but I'm glad its nearly done and I really hope Positrans is not a reflection of all trans people.

What I've learned trans is about identifying as not with.

There is nothing that cannot be appropriated.

It helps to have a decent amount of contempt for that which you wish to identify as.

@OldCrone

Here's a survey of over 34,000 respondents, it is the largest survey of LGBTQ youth mental health ever conducted:

There you go again, with your links to US sites. We're in the UK. Most of your links aren't relevant to the UK.

GIDS is the only gender clinic for children in England and Wales. They say that suicide is extremely rare.

You seem to think that trans people in the US have a completely different condition perhaps?

I, for one, I'm very glad that high court judges and the government have reiterated that anything being taught about transgenderism or gender dysphoria must be evidenced based.

They are finally completely wised up to all this risible and dangerous nonsense.

Hence the panic about shifting constellations being the only definition of sex allowable, I should imagine.

@SophocIestheFox

Before this thread draws to a conclusion I just wanted to get on the record, that although positrans has included lots of links to reputable seeming sources here, if you couldn’t be bothered to read them (and why would you ) they can be summed up thusly:

1. Too small sample, needs further investigation
2. Bullshit premise (one referred to “a female height” whatever that might be)
3. American not UK
4. Old and never been replicated
5. Inconclusive and/or overstated
6. Doesn’t say what posi says it says
7. Same link multiple times.

And maybe a couple that actually look reputable and interesting.

I would encourage everyone to listen to Sophoclesthefox here and look at the links yourself.

I have to catch up. But thanks everyone. This thread has been very illuminating and it filled a bingo card.

I won’t ever not be shocked by how transactivists talk about suicide. It’s mind boggling. Why would you want to increase the possibility of people you claim to be supporting killing themselves?

The way this has been ramped up since Dec 1st almost makes me think that they actually want to see some suicides to back up their claims.

@Winesalot

I have to catch up. But thanks everyone. This thread has been very illuminating and it filled a bingo card.

Mine too.

As a teenager if I’d visited websites that promoted suicide ideation or had told me that I may or would quite likely experience those feelings I’d have believed them.

There are groups out there telling young people that this is the expected response. To an outsider the message is - if you are not ticking the suicide / self-harm boxes you are not true trans.

Please do not perpetuate this damaging cycle which suggests being gender dysphoric and being suicidal are interdependent.

If you do think most ‘trans’ young people are at risk of suicide then please stop wasting your time trying to convert/agitate/argue with GC people on MN and get out crusading for better mental health support.

But not because they are trans but because they are undergoing extreme distress and bullying. And the solution to that is not to change yourself but to make other around you change their despicable behaviour .

Exactly the opposite of hormone treatment. Just let the kids be, let them be themselves without anyone bullying them because they are "different" . Without anyone suggesting they are odd, because they are not. Without any behaviour being considered indicative of a particular sex such that any child can express any behaviour without needing medicalisation.

Learn to love yourself and walk away from the narrow minded bullies who want to change anything about you

Ta-ra

So even if you dispute any particular study, simple logic dictates that trans children are going to have a higher suicide attempt rate than non-trans children.

This may come as a massive shock to you, but other children face discrimination, bullying, abuse and family rejection, not just trans ones. So no it doesn't dictate anything of the sort.

The most common correlates for child suicide are: bereavement, mental health problems and suicide related internet use. Suicide contagion is a real thing, especially for young people.

Trans activists insinuating to children questioning their identity and sexuality that they are more likely to kill themselves, to prop up their gender identity beliefs and emotionally blackmail women and people concerned about child safeguarding, is appallingly immoral.

So even if you dispute any particular study, simple logic dictates that trans children are going to have a higher suicide attempt rate than non-trans children.

I'm afraid logic from someone who defines sex as a shifting constellation of looseness, isn't it really going to cut the mustard, is it?

Fortunately, judges do not rely on that 'logic'.

They would rather have some statistics. As the Tavistock said, it's very rare. I believe there was one in 10 years.

@OldCrone

I won’t ever not be shocked by how transactivists talk about suicide. It’s mind boggling. Why would you want to increase the possibility of people you claim to be supporting killing themselves?

The way this has been ramped up since Dec 1st almost makes me think that they actually want to see some suicides to back up their claims.

This would count as monstering trans people - to suggest that we are essentially child killers. We've already had Frankenstein and rape apologist - you can see how I managed to fill my bingo card so quickly.

@Datun

So even if you dispute any particular study, simple logic dictates that trans children are going to have a higher suicide attempt rate than non-trans children.

I'm afraid logic from someone who defines sex as a shifting constellation of looseness, isn't it really going to cut the mustard, is it?

Fortunately, judges do not rely on that 'logic'.

They would rather have some statistics. As the Tavistock said, it's very rare. I believe there was one in 10 years.

One amongst children being treated. Think about it...

You seem to think that trans people in the US have a completely different condition perhaps?

Do you have any evidence that completed child suicide rates are high in the US?

@PotholeParadies

Harvesting as soon as possible.

That means putting a young girl who is already psychologically struggling with puberty on medication to stimulate egg production. Significant side-effects are possible.

Then the eggs have to be extracted. Adult women find that procedure farking unpleasant. I can't imagine a teenage transboy finds it less traumatic to sit in stirrups for gynae procedures.

Let’s also not forget how many grown women suffer strokes during the process. But a male who seems to hate women in the way they disregard their health risks probably would just hand wave that away for a young teen female also.

I'm afraid logic from someone who defines sex as a shifting constellation of looseness, isn't it really going to cut the mustard, is it?

Well, no.

I think the phrase “simple logic” could be the subheading for this thread.

You’ve been really helpful, posi, thanks. Covered all the main topics.

You’ve been really helpful, posi, thanks. Covered all the main topics.

Haven't they just.

One amongst children being treated. Think about it...

So the treatment (puberty blockers?) didn't stop them being suicidal. Is that what you're saying?

Trans women are women.