Can someone please explain... (trans)

[WednesdayAllTheWay]

So I've been trying to follow this trans situation for a while but now having skin in the game in the form of a child (and also noting through work how more and more people are identifying as the opposite gender) I need to understand it better.
Feel slightly embarrassed asking but:

1. How exactly do the words sex and gender differ in this area?
2. What reasons do trans people give for wanting to change their physical bodies? As in what do people believe they will get from this that they couldn't get in the body they were born with?
3. What are children being taught at school about this?

Thanks!

My gender identity doesn't match the sex I was observed to have at birth, so I guess I'm trans now?

Still, it's always good to show your workings out, isn't it!

😂

@OldCrone

The definition is well know and very simple - gender identity is a person's innate sense of what sex they are.

This is certainly what it used to mean. It was an understanding gained by a person, normally at a very early age, of what sex they were, and that this couldn't be changed.

If you are using this original meaning of 'gender identity', then it is always the same as someone's sex, and it can't be changed. It's just not possible to have an innate sense that you are female if you are male. To experience such a thing would commonly be referred to as a delusion, i.e. a deep seated belief in something which is not true.

The science disagrees with you:

www.endocrine.org/advocacy/position-statements/transgender-health

I cannot believe that this discussion needs to be had. There are two sexes. For reproductive purposes. Due to specifics connected to the biological differences in sexed bodies (male and female) we need single sex spaces, separate sports and protection from discrimination due to maternity leave. That is it. The rest of the gender soup can be digested at will by whoever fancies it. Some will have the entire bowl.

The sad thing is, when it comes to the surrogacy debate (another feminist topic), everyone knows what a woman is, even the most hardcore TRAs. I am yet to see a TRA accepting a trans woman surrogate. It is a shame though, if trans women indeed are women. Such a validating experience. And it means biological women can be spared this.

@Passmeabottlemrjones

Do you see how people are attacking Shon, rather than the content of the quote?

OK let me explain.

It's really fucking offensive for a male to describe womanhood as a 'loose, shifting constellation of... phenomena'. How dare you. Its so offensive to all the women throughout history who have never been able to 'identify' out of their oppression, out of their biological experiences, out of their female bodies.

Since the dawn of time, men have tried to define women, to tell them what they are and aren't allowed to be, what they are and what they are not. In this quote, Shon Faye has just done what millions of males did before Shon. Its the same old misogynistic shite as ever.

Thank you Passmeabottlemrjones. I was going to respond to that myself. You not only saved my time but I couldn't have done it justice like that.

Post of the day!

The science disagrees with you:

The heavily invested and self interested Endocrine Society really isn't the be all and end all of "science", sorry to burst your little bubble.

Well teenagers have usually started puberty, and as we know, if a child is trans at the onset of puberty, that's pretty much it - it doesn't change. That's why de-transition after staring blockers is so rare.

Actually, many children desist during puberty. Not necessarily at the start of puberty when hormone blockers are sometimes given to them, but by the time they are adults.

This study concluded:
Most children with gender dysphoria will not remain gender dysphoric after puberty.

And it is likely that the reason that desistance in children who are given hormone blockers is so rare is that the hormonal changes at puberty are actually responsible for the desistance. Blocking these hormones causes children who would naturally desist to instead persist in their transgender identification.

@Datun

You will know from my posts that I consider trans women to be women and that gender identity is a reality of our our biology.

Excellent description.

Sex isn't biology, nor are reproductive organs, or gametes.

Wanting to be the opposite sex is biology, and we should change all the laws designed to keep women safe, private, and alleviate their oppression from being based on the former, to being based on the latter which, by quite a remarkable coincidence, does the complete opposite. Hence Karen White.

Is everyone clear?

Oh righto then!

I shall now make sure I identify as a male (because I very much wanted to be in my childhood and teens), and will escape menopause, I might give pause before I give as much male blood as I can labeled male, but I shall tell any prospective employers that I am a 34 yr old man, my employment chances will be much higher!

The sad thing is, when it comes to the surrogacy debate (another feminist topic), everyone knows what a woman is, even the most hardcore TRAs. I am yet to see a TRA accepting a trans woman surrogate. It is a shame though, if trans women indeed are women. Such a validating experience. And it means biological women can be spared this.

Yes, I suggest a campaign for inclusion of more MTF trans people in surrogacy as gestational carriers. It's shocking that they dont get considered and chosen. It is 2020 FFS! I think that would be a welcome development. How about a campaign Positrans?

I wonder what jj would have to say about all of this?

Positrans

You will know from my posts that I consider trans women to be women and that gender identity is a reality of our our biology

And I do not consider transwomen to be women (of the adult human of the female sex type). We are both sure that we are right.

There is no middle ground - you do not agree with my view and I do not agree with yours. You stated above that people who use the word 'transwoman' are trying to invalidate your identity (I don't agree). But by that logic, people using 'trans woman' are trying to invalidate the identity of women!

Yes, I suggest a campaign for inclusion of more MTF trans people in surrogacy as gestational carriers. It's shocking that they dont get considered and chosen. It is 2020 FFS! I think that would be a welcome development.

I would suggest that the contract be only payable with proof of a delivery of an infant of the same dna as was implanted, though.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The sad thing is, when it comes to the surrogacy debate (another feminist topic), everyone knows what a woman is, even the most hardcore TRAs. I am yet to see a TRA accepting a trans woman surrogate. It is a shame though, if trans women indeed are women. Such a validating experience. And it means biological women can be spared this.

Yes, I suggest a campaign for inclusion of more MTF trans people in surrogacy as gestational carriers. It's shocking that they dont get considered and chosen. It is 2020 FFS! I think that would be a welcome development. How about a campaign Positrans?

I am currently in contact with two young trans women who are in preliminary discussions with surgeons in Scandinavia about womb transplants.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The science disagrees with you:

The heavily invested and self interested Endocrine Society really isn't the be all and end all of "science", sorry to burst your little bubble.

That's a conspiracy theory. What you need is counter-science.

Mine is the same as Shon's, but I also use "adult human female".

If woman is a 'shifting constellation over time and culture' or whatever, then how come the same class of human is still gestating and giving birth to young as 1000 years ago? And how come in every single culture around the world, the same class of human gestates and gives birth to young? And how come, over time and culture, that same class of human as been oppressed based on their role of gestating and giving birth to young?

What is your definition of 'female'?

If you required a human to gestate and give birth to another human, would you choose a transwoman? Why not, if they are a woman in exactly the same way as any other woman?

I am currently in contact with two young trans women who are in preliminary discussions with surgeons in Scandinavia about womb transplants.

I know you're trying to get a rise, positrans, but honestly, this is not our first rodeo. We have had other transwomen do the same, although they are sometimes a little funnier than you.

Could you try and inject a little bit of humour into it? Or character?

I am currently in contact with two young trans women who are in preliminary discussions with surgeons in Scandinavia about womb transplants.

And you have no problems experimenting on embryos and fetuses then? In the progression of the attaining the ‘right’ to gestate a child?

Do you honestly see no ethical issues here at all......

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The science disagrees with you:

The heavily invested and self interested Endocrine Society really isn't the be all and end all of "science", sorry to burst your little bubble.

Looking at the updated version of that Endocrine Society statement yesterday made me realise how much of it is about 'insurance should cover this'.

$$$$$

I'm a transwomen with a fully functioning womb!

So Positrans since sex is a spectrum and you and I are not the same (I have the ability to give birth and you don’t, I don’t have this gender identity thing but you do) and as you’ve said you’re female, I don’t believe I’m male then I must be one of these other, as yet unnamed, sexes?

@InterfectoremVulpes

I'm a transwomen with a fully functioning womb!

Yes, there appear to be loads of us on here. Loads of us with fully functioning wombs, who identify as trans, according to the definition.

I am currently in contact with two young trans women who are in preliminary discussions with surgeons in Scandinavia about womb transplants.

Are they indeed?

How are these Scandinavian surgeons proposing to replicate in a male, the highly complex hormonal system required to sustain a pregnancy for 9 months to allow for a foetus to grow enough that they can be born at term, giving them the best possible chance for proper development and survival outside the womb?

Given that scientists haven't figured out how to ensure all pregnancies are successful in females yet?

How many 'experiments' (and by experiments I mean foetuses created) would have to occur to make this a reality?

@EyesOpening

So Positrans since sex is a spectrum and you and I are not the same (I have the ability to give birth and you don’t, I don’t have this gender identity thing but you do) and as you’ve said you’re female, I don’t believe I’m male then I must be one of these other, as yet unnamed, sexes?

That's for you to resolve. Enjoy the journey.

@Passmeabottlemrjones

I am currently in contact with two young trans women who are in preliminary discussions with surgeons in Scandinavia about womb transplants.

Are they indeed?

How are these Scandinavian surgeons proposing to replicate in a male, the highly complex hormonal system required to sustain a pregnancy for 9 months to allow for a foetus to grow enough that they can be born at term, giving them the best possible chance for proper development and survival outside the womb?

Given that scientists haven't figured out how to ensure all pregnancies are successful in females yet?

How many 'experiments' (and by experiments I mean foetuses created) would have to occur to make this a reality?

You'll have to ask the surgeons.

Ethics. Biology. Surgeons.

All loose, shifting constellations of meaninglessness...