Can someone please explain... (trans)

[WednesdayAllTheWay]

So I've been trying to follow this trans situation for a while but now having skin in the game in the form of a child (and also noting through work how more and more people are identifying as the opposite gender) I need to understand it better.
Feel slightly embarrassed asking but:

1. How exactly do the words sex and gender differ in this area?
2. What reasons do trans people give for wanting to change their physical bodies? As in what do people believe they will get from this that they couldn't get in the body they were born with?
3. What are children being taught at school about this?

Thanks!

@Datun

I know that trans women are just as likely to yearn to be able to bear children as non-trans women.

Well, because of that pesky biology again, you can't have a clue, and I'm afraid never will have, about how it feels for a woman to yearn for anything specific to her biology. Only a woman would have that experience.

Male born individuals, can only understand what male born individuals might be yearning for.

Trying to breastfeeding using male bodies, taking women's bodies and trying to put parts of them into male bodies. That sort of thing.

I don't agree that trans women are male, in case you hadn't noticed.

So healthy women are going to be expected to give up their wombs so that Transwomen can live out a fantasy of being female and giving birth? Why is that necessary? Who benefits from that? As with everything else - single sex spaces, women's sports, women's shortlists - this does not benefit women. Why should women acquiesce? If you can come up with an answer that's about anything other than validating the identities of transwomen I'd be keen to know...

The only think that is intrinsic to being a trans women is to be someone who has a female gender identity but who was assigned male at birth.

When you say 'assigned male at birth' you mean 'biologically male body' don't you? It's not like the doctors/midwives assign a sex and then it all depends on what they say as to whether that baby will go on to develop a biologically male or female body is it?

That's not how it works!

I don't agree that trans women are male, in case you hadn't noticed.

What is your definition of 'male'?

The donor doesn't have to be dead. I think the first successful one was a donation from a mother to her daughter.

The only think that is intrinsic to being a trans women is to be someone who has a female gender identity but who was assigned male at birth.

For a transwoman, as already specified, the donor would have to be dead, because the recipient would not have the surrounding blood vessel system to support a uterus. The amount of tissue (including the top part of the donor's vagina) that would have to be removed from the donor to keep it functional in a male recipient would be disabling for the donor, if not entirely incompatible with life for her.

But their non-ability to bear children and lack of a uterus does suggest that trans women are not female.

@Datun

Well of course - it's doesn't really matter what science I post - peer-reviewed or otherwise. It will all be dismissed here. Doesn't the sheer volume of science that you have to dismiss start to make you uncomfortable though?

🤣🤣🤣

I know!!! Absolutely gobsmacking that quote, isn’t it!

What is your definition of 'male'?

I think it's a shifting constellation of bollocks or something.

@OldCrone

I know that trans women are just as likely to yearn to be able to bear children as non-trans women.

I think it's likely that as adults, 'trans' children will be just as likely as any other adults to wish to have their own children.

Yet people like you are so intent on them throwing away their fertility before they are old enough to understand what it is they are giving up.

Why are you so keen to sterilise children Positrans?

There's a lot of work going into egg and sperm freezing for trans children.

Leelah Alcorn, a trans child who was prevented from transitioning is dead, and therefore also infertile:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Leelah_Alcorn

Same for Fouad:

apnews.com/article/lille-france-gender-identity-906d49e6da9f932e648b835927be1d25

I'm quite excited about this idea of outsourcing the pregnancies to trans women. Especially the constipation, piles, prolapse, anaemia, swollen ankles, pelvic pain, itching, thrush, exhaustion, nausea, indigestion and snoring - they are welcome to all that.

I think the only other bit that's left is the demure-Demi-Moore posing? Or, is that actually the significant bit of a pregnancy?

Aaaand we have weaponising suicide

Am I getting this correct... the poster with all the science quotes and posts believes that

a) doctors should work on implanting wombs (from dead or alive women) into biological males?

b) that this (including the presumably significant number of discarded embryos) is an ethical way to enabling ejaculators identifying as women to have children?

c) that there is no problem with infertility due to puberty blockers in children as presumably the doctors with the profound knowledge will solve the issue according to a and b?

Is it too early for gin ?

@BewaretheIckabog

But their non-ability to bear children and lack of a uterus does suggest that trans women are not female.

There are a lot of infertile women who would find that quite offensive. No one should feel that not having a womb somehow compromises their womanhood.

@OldCrone

What is your definition of 'male'?

I think it's a shifting constellation of bollocks or something.

It's a shame that this thread will end in few minutes. I'd like to thank all of the interesting and humorous posters for making it a good one.

@HecatesCatsInXmasHats

Aaaand we have weaponising suicide

We have reporting of the real risk of suicide in trans young people. I realise it's an uncomfortable topic on a forum like this, but it's a very real danger.

www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/puberty-blockers-linked-lower-suicide-risk-transgender-people-n1122101?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_ot

There's a lot of work going into egg and sperm freezing for trans children.

But they have to go through puberty first. How are you going to do this if you stop them from going through puberty?

I do wish biology was nuanced but it’s not.

For women biology is a hard real fact, it’s unequivocal and results in female, infanticide, FGM, death in child birth, period poverty, higher instances of workplace inequality, domestic violence, poverty, sexual assault, rape, sex trafficking, forced prostitution, familial responsibilities and lower paid work.

Only a man could fail to see that and worry about the poor trans women who can’t give birth. What pisses me off so much about the TRAs on MN and Twitter is the level of entitlement - when trans women start fighting for real women’s issues I will fight with them.

But they have to go through puberty first. How are you going to do this if you stop them from going through puberty?

It's a dilemma.

@Positrans
GIDS say that "suicide is extremely rare" amongst children with gender dysphoria. Please stop spreading misinformation.
gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base

Indeed once you show any signs of trans questioning behaviour you are encouraged to talk about your suicidal feelings , just to show how hurt you are

Whereas evidence of actual differences in suicide rates between those who are allowed to trans and those who are not is somewhat missing

Um, are you aware of exactly how gruelling the process is for egg collection, and how poor the success rate is for frozen eggs?

Oh, and teenage girls must go through enough of puberty to produce mature eggs.

Womb transplants for trans women are what happens when scientists have a very profound knowledge of biology.
Such as knowing there’s one set of the people who can gestate and another set who can impregnate?

@OldCrone

There's a lot of work going into egg and sperm freezing for trans children.

But they have to go through puberty first. How are you going to do this if you stop them from going through puberty?

It's tricky - there's a balance to be found. Puberty blockers are not given until puberty has already started, so it's generally a question of harvesting as soon as possible, so that the blockers can go ahead.

Wow.

I did get the sense that we were working our way up the scale to womb transplants and weaponising suicide, and here we are.

Nobody is monstering you, positrans. You are doing all the work here, with your own words, yourself. Nobody’s censoring you, nobody’s silencing you, and you’ve been given a platform to expound your viewpoint with quite astonishing tolerance and restraint shown, given the contempt that you’re treating women with. Everyone’s reading you loud and clear, but you are unfortunately oblivious to the effect you’re having.

As MNHQ are wont to say, Go Well.

We have reporting of the real risk of suicide in trans young people.

This is untrue, at least in the U.K. There is no evidence that "trans children" commit suicide more regularly than other children, and child suicides are so small in number and multi factorial that this is not a claim that could ever be made. This is irresponsible scaremongering to prop up the claims of TRAs.