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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can someone please explain... (trans)

999 replies

WednesdayAllTheWay · 12/12/2020 12:56

So I've been trying to follow this trans situation for a while but now having skin in the game in the form of a child (and also noting through work how more and more people are identifying as the opposite gender) I need to understand it better.
Feel slightly embarrassed asking but:

  1. How exactly do the words sex and gender differ in this area?
  2. What reasons do trans people give for wanting to change their physical bodies? As in what do people believe they will get from this that they couldn't get in the body they were born with?
  3. What are children being taught at school about this?
Thanks!
OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
WednesdayAllTheWay · 12/12/2020 18:51

@OldCrone
The more I understand the more disturbed I get...
So, sorry to be dense but this is basically massively setting back the feminist cause of women and men being able to do pretty much anything we want, right?

OP posts:
NecessaryScene1 · 12/12/2020 19:09

So, sorry to be dense but this is basically massively setting back the feminist cause of women and men being able to do pretty much anything we want, right?

Basically, yes. And it's why we're all here. And that's why they're meeting ever-increasing levels of resistance as more and more people become aware. (They really can't understand where the resistance is coming from, and it's clearly causing them a lot of upset now).

Their ideology isscrewing up so much progress that's been made, and the activists on that side (or those just accepting it) are failing to engage their brains and see that's what they're doing. They think they're solving a problem, but their "cure" is worse.

To some extent there is a naive belief that any change is "progress". But things can go backwards.

Alethiometrical · 12/12/2020 19:14

one exception tends to be the division of domestic labour between the sexes

Other exceptions:

  • taking on minimum wage jobs, especially in caring and paid domestic services
  • the sex pay gap
  • crime (transwoman commit crimes at roughly the same rate as men)
WednesdayAllTheWay · 12/12/2020 19:54

@NancyDrawed

WHO Definitions:

Sex

The different biological and physiological characteristics of males and females, such as reproductive organs, chromosomes, hormones, etc.

Gender

Refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed. The concept of gender includes five important elements: relational, hierarchical, historical, contextual and institutional. While most people are born either male or female, they are taught appropriate norms and behaviours – including how they should interact with others of the same or opposite sex within households, communities and work places. When individuals or groups do not “fit” established gender norms they often face stigma, discriminatory practices or social exclusion – all of which adversely affect health.

@NancyDrawed So "male" and "female" refer to sex while man and woman are supposed refer to gender? So you can self define as a woman but you can't self define as female? Or can they both be used for both? Sorry, confusing myself now.
OP posts:
nauticant · 12/12/2020 20:02

In the "sex" category you have a male person who is a man (if an adult) and a female person who is a women (if an adult).

According to the expectations of society, male people, men, are supposed to be masculine (gender) and female people, women, are supposed to be feminine (gender).

What was straightforward has, particularly in the past 5 years, been made confusing and hard to understand.

Kettledodger · 12/12/2020 20:24

IMO female/woman or male/man are all used to describe sex. The confusing bit is that female/woman AND feminine as well as male/man AND masculine are used in different ways to talk about gender. This is why things are so damn confusing because there is not one singular word used for sex or gender.

WednesdayAllTheWay · 12/12/2020 20:33

Ok, that helps..
So when did the concept of gender even start to come into things? As I'm assuming that it wasn't really a thing until relatively recently? Although I think there are ancient authors who talk (in a derogatory way of course) about men who act "like women".

OP posts:
OldCrone · 12/12/2020 20:56

[quote WednesdayAllTheWay]@OldCrone
The more I understand the more disturbed I get...
So, sorry to be dense but this is basically massively setting back the feminist cause of women and men being able to do pretty much anything we want, right?[/quote]
Yes. This is one reason why feminists have a problem with the trans agenda.

Transactivists seem to be trying to equate feminine with women and masculine with men. Some of us think that that sort of view is outdated and everyone should be able to be as masculine or as feminine as they want regardless of their sex, and we know that sex can't be changed.

The transactivist view is that a masculine girl (woman) is a boy (man) and her body should be changed to match her gender. Similarly, a feminine boy or man should have his body changed.

We are apparently bigots for saying that you can't change sex, but feminine boys and men are fine as they are, and so are masculine women and girls.

nauticant · 12/12/2020 20:57

It came from all a number of sources but a major input was John Money:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

Have a read through. It is unsettling, and is only the tip of the iceberg.

midgebabe · 12/12/2020 21:10

@WednesdayAllTheWay

Ok, that helps.. So when did the concept of gender even start to come into things? As I'm assuming that it wasn't really a thing until relatively recently? Although I think there are ancient authors who talk (in a derogatory way of course) about men who act "like women".
I wonder if there was no need to separate gender from sex if you strongly enforced roles?
Alethiometrical · 12/12/2020 21:24

So when did the concept of gender even start to come into things? As I'm assuming that it wasn't really a thing until relatively recently?

Being able to make a distinction between sex (biological) and gender role (culturally & historically constructed & changeable) is central to any feminist critique of culture& society (patriarchy).

There's no clear originary point of the making of this distinction - Mary Wollstonecraft (in 1792) and John Stuart Mill (in 1868) both start describing what we'd now call 'conditioning' or 'socialisation' - they noticed that women were 'trained' by our society to act in certain ways which made it look as though because women had babies, therefore they were "naturally" the carers, and the nurturers, for example.

Heres Mill, with his wife Harriet Taylor, in The Subjection of Women on socialisarion:

All causes, social and natural, combine to make it unlikely that women should be collectively rebellious to the power of men. They are so far in a position different from all other subject classes, that their masters require something more from them than actual service. Men do not want solely the obedience of women, they want their sentiments. All men, except the most brutish, desire to have, in the woman most nearly connected with them, not a forced slave but a willing one, not a slave merely, but a favourite.They have therefore put everything in practice to enslave their minds. The masters of all other slaves rely, for maintaining obedience, on fear; either fear of themselves, or religious fears. The masters of women wanted more than simple obedience, and they turned the whole force of education to effect their purpose. All women are brought up from the very earliest years in the belief that their ideal of character is the very opposite to that of men; not self-will, and government by self-control, but submission, and yielding to the control of others. All the moralities tell them that it is the duty of women, and all the current sentimentalities that it is their nature, to live for others; to make complete abnegation of themselves, and to have no life but in their affections. And by their affections are meant the only ones they are allowed to have—those to the men with whom they are connected, or to the children who constitute an additional and indefeasible tie between them and a man. When we put together three things—first, the natural attraction between opposite sexes; secondly, the wife's entire dependence on the husband, every privilege or pleasure she has being either his gift, or depending entirely on his will; and lastly, that the principal object of human pursuit, consideration, and all objects of social ambition, can in general be sought or obtained by her only through him, it would be a miracle if the object of being attractive to men had not become the polar star of feminine education and formation of character
from the Project Gutenberg version: Subjection of Women

And I love this paragraph, where Mill & Taylor point out that we've only ever lived under patriarchy - so its superiority to other ways of running the world is merely theoretical:
The least that can be demanded is, that the question should not be considered as prejudged by existing fact and existing opinion, but open to discussion on its merits, as a question of justice and expediency: the decision on this, as on any of the other social arrangements of mankind, depending on what an enlightened estimate of tendencies and consequences may show to be most advantageous to humanity in general, without distinction of sex. And the discussion must be a real discussion, descending to foundations, and not resting satisfied with vague and general assertions. It will not do, for instance, to assert in general terms, that the experience of mankind has pronounced in favour of the existing system. Experience cannot possibly have decided between two courses, so long as there has only been experience of one. If it be said that the doctrine of the equality of the sexes rests only on theory, it must be remembered that the contrary doctrine also has only theory to rest upon. All that is proved in its favour by direct experience, is that mankind have been able to exist under it, and to attain the degree of improvement and prosperity which we now see; but whether that prosperity has been attained sooner, or is now greater, than it would have been under the other system, experience does not say

NancyDrawed · 12/12/2020 21:27

WednesdayAllTheWay

For me, Male and Female relate to biology. So when a form asks for 'gender' then give the options male/female, I know that they have wrongly used gender when they mean sex and will challenge it.

Man/woman to most people means adult human of the male/female sex but you would not be asked for 'sex -man/woman' because that makes no sense.

Ultimately, your biology is fixed whatever your personal sense of identity. Regardless of how a person identifies they will still be biologically either male or female.

Positrans · 12/12/2020 21:54

Hi, I'm trans and I can certainly help you with the first 2 questions:

  1. This is a big area of confusion. "Sex" typically refers to physical sex characteristics, and "gender" typically refers to gendered behaviours, however there is a huge overlap and "gender" is often used as synonym for sex". For example, you will often hear people talk about the "gender pay gap" so in that example "gender" means physical sex".

Another example is the term "gender identity" which is actually much closer in meaning to "sex identity". It's confusion over the latter which leads some people to assume that being trans has everything to do with gender stereotypes, whereas of course, it doesn't. Some trans girls for example are tomboys (I was one myself) but they still identify as female.

  1. If your sex identity is female, but you have physical masculinities typical of boys, that can lead to some distress. This distress is called gender dysphoria. It can be extremely profound and leads a very large percentage of trans people to attempt suicide - most often quoted figures for that are between about 1/3 and 1/2 of trans people.

You might find it easier to understand if you look for people who are not trans but who have sex characteristics that don't feel right for them. For example, some women grow full beards - sometimes due to PCOS, but sometimes just naturally. There are a tiny number of women like Harnam Kaur (who I admire very much), who wear a beard proudly, but most women are very uncomfortable with such an overt physical masculinity and will seek to have it removed. Trans women are the same, except it's not just a beard.

You will find men typically feel the same way about developing breasts. Again, this can be part of a medical condition but not necessarily, and even if the breasts are completely harmless to their health, most men are very uncomfortable about them and will hide them, and seek to have them removed. Trans men are the same.

Some people will claim that most trans women don't want any physical changes, however this is not true. For example, you can see from this large survey of trans people that about 87% of trans women have either had or want vaginoplasty. The problem of course is that it is extremely hard to access, so there are a lot more trans women in the "want surgery" group than the "had surgery" group. Hopefully that will improve in time:

static1.squarespace.com/static/566c7f0c2399a3bdabb57553/t/566cbf2c57eb8de92a5392e6/1449967404768/ntds_full.pdf

I hope that helps clarify for you.

nauticant · 12/12/2020 22:00

"sex identity" isn't a thing. Trying to make it a thing is gaslighting.

Don't weaponise suicide like that. The Samaritans counsel against it.

I was going to comment more but found the rest of your post to be more propaganda than information.

Positrans · 12/12/2020 22:09

As a trans woman, I can confirm that sex identity is a thing. Telling someone that what they are experiencing isn't what they are experiencing is kind of the definition of gaslighting.

It's very important that people know about the suicide stats for trans people if they are going to gain an understanding of the level of distress that gender dysphoria can cause.

OldCrone · 12/12/2020 22:13

It can be extremely profound and leads a very large percentage of trans people to attempt suicide - most often quoted figures for that are between about 1/3 and 1/2 of trans people.

This isn't true. See this recent paper:

www.researchgate.net/publication/345626543_Suicidality_in_clinic-referred_transgender_adolescents

Although our data suggest that elevated rates of suicidality are a clinical issue requiring attention in some transgender adolescents, it should, of course, be noted that the majority of the adolescents, either by parent-report or self-report, did not report such thoughts or behaviors

And as nauticant has already said, the Samaritans advise that suicide shouldn't be weaponised in this way. If you really care about those who identify as transgender you shouldn't make comments like this.

OldCrone · 12/12/2020 22:16

Some trans girls for example are tomboys (I was one myself) but they still identify as female.

What do you mean by 'identify as female'? 'Female' isn't an identity, it's a sex. You can't identify as female if you're male. It just doesn't make sense.

Positrans · 12/12/2020 22:24

Those children are not necessarily representative. The study I linked to above gives a figure of 41% I believe.

This survey of 27,715 respondents found that 40% of respondents have attempted suicide in their lifetime—nearly nine times the attempted suicide rate in the U.S. population (4.6%).

transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

The Trevor Project found a figure of 54% for trans youth:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2019/?section=Suicidality-Mental-Health

It's not just the West of course - this Chinese survey found that 46.2% of trans people reported having considered suicide as a result of being transgender, with 12.7%ultimately attempting to do so.

chinadevelopmentbrief.cn/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2017-Chinese-Transgender-Population-General-Survey-Report.pdf

Those are not the only surveys and this is not "weaponising" - this making sure people have access to all the relevant information. Suicidality is a massive problem for trans people and no broad discussion of trans issues if complete without reference to it.

OldCrone · 12/12/2020 22:24

For example, you can see from this large survey of trans people that about 87% of trans women have either had or want vaginoplasty.

According to that survey, only 23% say they have had that surgery (and we have no idea if they're telling the truth). A further 64% say they want it - again we have no idea if they're telling the truth. And why are there so many that haven't had it?

The figure I've seen is more like less than 10% have had this surgery. I think this was based on numbers of operations carried out in the country that those people were living in. Of course, some may have gone overseas for their surgery, so that would increase the numbers.

The number of men flaunting their 'female penises' definitely seems to be on the increase though.

OldCrone · 12/12/2020 22:28

Suicidality is a massive problem for trans people

Why is it such a problem for them? They don't have a mental health condition, so why would so many of them be suicidal? Do you have no interest in finding out why this is? Or if you know, can you explain?

notyourhandmaid · 13/12/2020 00:29

"Suicidality in young people attending the GIDS is similar to that of young people referred to child and adolescent mental health services. It is not helpful to suggest that suicidality is an inevitable part of this condition."
gids.nhs.uk/news-events/2018-10-15/our-response-full-itv-series-butterfly

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 13/12/2020 00:55

@Alethiometrical

So when did the concept of gender even start to come into things? As I'm assuming that it wasn't really a thing until relatively recently?

Being able to make a distinction between sex (biological) and gender role (culturally & historically constructed & changeable) is central to any feminist critique of culture& society (patriarchy).

There's no clear originary point of the making of this distinction - Mary Wollstonecraft (in 1792) and John Stuart Mill (in 1868) both start describing what we'd now call 'conditioning' or 'socialisation' - they noticed that women were 'trained' by our society to act in certain ways which made it look as though because women had babies, therefore they were "naturally" the carers, and the nurturers, for example.

Heres Mill, with his wife Harriet Taylor, in The Subjection of Women on socialisarion:

All causes, social and natural, combine to make it unlikely that women should be collectively rebellious to the power of men. They are so far in a position different from all other subject classes, that their masters require something more from them than actual service. Men do not want solely the obedience of women, they want their sentiments. All men, except the most brutish, desire to have, in the woman most nearly connected with them, not a forced slave but a willing one, not a slave merely, but a favourite.They have therefore put everything in practice to enslave their minds. The masters of all other slaves rely, for maintaining obedience, on fear; either fear of themselves, or religious fears. The masters of women wanted more than simple obedience, and they turned the whole force of education to effect their purpose. All women are brought up from the very earliest years in the belief that their ideal of character is the very opposite to that of men; not self-will, and government by self-control, but submission, and yielding to the control of others. All the moralities tell them that it is the duty of women, and all the current sentimentalities that it is their nature, to live for others; to make complete abnegation of themselves, and to have no life but in their affections. And by their affections are meant the only ones they are allowed to have—those to the men with whom they are connected, or to the children who constitute an additional and indefeasible tie between them and a man. When we put together three things—first, the natural attraction between opposite sexes; secondly, the wife's entire dependence on the husband, every privilege or pleasure she has being either his gift, or depending entirely on his will; and lastly, that the principal object of human pursuit, consideration, and all objects of social ambition, can in general be sought or obtained by her only through him, it would be a miracle if the object of being attractive to men had not become the polar star of feminine education and formation of character
from the Project Gutenberg version: Subjection of Women

And I love this paragraph, where Mill & Taylor point out that we've only ever lived under patriarchy - so its superiority to other ways of running the world is merely theoretical:
The least that can be demanded is, that the question should not be considered as prejudged by existing fact and existing opinion, but open to discussion on its merits, as a question of justice and expediency: the decision on this, as on any of the other social arrangements of mankind, depending on what an enlightened estimate of tendencies and consequences may show to be most advantageous to humanity in general, without distinction of sex. And the discussion must be a real discussion, descending to foundations, and not resting satisfied with vague and general assertions. It will not do, for instance, to assert in general terms, that the experience of mankind has pronounced in favour of the existing system. Experience cannot possibly have decided between two courses, so long as there has only been experience of one. If it be said that the doctrine of the equality of the sexes rests only on theory, it must be remembered that the contrary doctrine also has only theory to rest upon. All that is proved in its favour by direct experience, is that mankind have been able to exist under it, and to attain the degree of improvement and prosperity which we now see; but whether that prosperity has been attained sooner, or is now greater, than it would have been under the other system, experience does not say

Mind. Blown. Thank you for these excerpts, which I hadn’t come across before.

It’s both wonderful that this kind of thinking goes back so far, and sad that we’ve made so little progress in the intervening years in seeing this way of thinking become accepted and normalised.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 13/12/2020 01:24

Positrans can you define sex identity please?
You kind of sneakily avoided defining any of your terms, the closest I can parse is:

"Sex" typically refers to physical sex characteristics" so sex refers to our physical bodies, which in mammals is classed in reference to our reproductive role. Males as a class are the only producers of small motile gametes. Females as a class are the only ones who can contribute large immotile gametes. Each sex develops secondary characteristics as a consequence of these primary sex characteristics.

In this context, the term sex identity is meaningless to me. How can a male have an identity (the work that word is doing could use some parsing...) of producing large immotile gametes?

"If your sex identity is female, but you have physical masculinities typical of boys, that can lead to some distress. This distress is called gender dysphoria."
What is physical masculinities please? Do you mean boys - juveniles or adolescents of the male sex - have male sexed bodies? I hope to comprehend this paragraph better after your explanation of 'sex identity.' Thanks.

HotButteredRumPaPumPum · 13/12/2020 04:14

@Positrans

Hi, I'm trans and I can certainly help you with the first 2 questions:
  1. This is a big area of confusion. "Sex" typically refers to physical sex characteristics, and "gender" typically refers to gendered behaviours, however there is a huge overlap and "gender" is often used as synonym for sex". For example, you will often hear people talk about the "gender pay gap" so in that example "gender" means physical sex".

Another example is the term "gender identity" which is actually much closer in meaning to "sex identity". It's confusion over the latter which leads some people to assume that being trans has everything to do with gender stereotypes, whereas of course, it doesn't. Some trans girls for example are tomboys (I was one myself) but they still identify as female.

  1. If your sex identity is female, but you have physical masculinities typical of boys, that can lead to some distress. This distress is called gender dysphoria. It can be extremely profound and leads a very large percentage of trans people to attempt suicide - most often quoted figures for that are between about 1/3 and 1/2 of trans people.

You might find it easier to understand if you look for people who are not trans but who have sex characteristics that don't feel right for them. For example, some women grow full beards - sometimes due to PCOS, but sometimes just naturally. There are a tiny number of women like Harnam Kaur (who I admire very much), who wear a beard proudly, but most women are very uncomfortable with such an overt physical masculinity and will seek to have it removed. Trans women are the same, except it's not just a beard.

You will find men typically feel the same way about developing breasts. Again, this can be part of a medical condition but not necessarily, and even if the breasts are completely harmless to their health, most men are very uncomfortable about them and will hide them, and seek to have them removed. Trans men are the same.

Some people will claim that most trans women don't want any physical changes, however this is not true. For example, you can see from this large survey of trans people that about 87% of trans women have either had or want vaginoplasty. The problem of course is that it is extremely hard to access, so there are a lot more trans women in the "want surgery" group than the "had surgery" group. Hopefully that will improve in time:

static1.squarespace.com/static/566c7f0c2399a3bdabb57553/t/566cbf2c57eb8de92a5392e6/1449967404768/ntds_full.pdf

I hope that helps clarify for you.

I used to be a tomboy when I was in junior school. I was not nor never will be Trans. I was a GIRL. A GIRL who liked running round rather than playing with dolls. Dont lump everyone who isnt your stereotypical female under the Trans umbrella.
MichelleofzeResistance · 13/12/2020 09:52

For example, you will often hear people talk about the "gender pay gap" so in that example "gender" means physical sex".

Yes. This coyness over using the word sex has led to the confusion that now messes with women's equality. The pay gap disadvantages all biological adult females as a class, not people who choose feminine expression. To try and obscure that in an attempt to make sex unfixed and a matter of choice and so conflate gender into vanishing sex to reduce the distress of a very small proportion of the population harms the entire class of female people, which is after all half the human race.

This is ideology; a choice of belief. It is not fact, and should not be presented as fact, and it becomes offensive when it is done so because in the example as above: it is harmful to half the human race who are disadvantaged by the fixed reality of their birth sex and cannot just identify out of these issues.