Can someone please explain... (trans)

[WednesdayAllTheWay]

So I've been trying to follow this trans situation for a while but now having skin in the game in the form of a child (and also noting through work how more and more people are identifying as the opposite gender) I need to understand it better.
Feel slightly embarrassed asking but:

1. How exactly do the words sex and gender differ in this area?
2. What reasons do trans people give for wanting to change their physical bodies? As in what do people believe they will get from this that they couldn't get in the body they were born with?
3. What are children being taught at school about this?

Thanks!

Quite. There is no time in history when anyone would have been in doubt that I was a woman, whatever the word was for woman in the current language.

The social expectations that came along with that (for example, knitting, when it was a profession, was a male trade) might have shifted slightly, but no-one would have doubted I was female.

I don't know any women who would have escaped historical misogynistic oppression on the basis of not looking female enough.

Being trans is a medical condition.

Is it? I have been told over and over that it's just like being gay?

@Biscuitsanddoombar

I really hope the lurkers are enjoying this thread as much as I am.....

No one ever changes sex, they merely change their outward appearance. You can’t alter your skeleton & sex is not a spectrum

I'm glad you brought pelvises up. Apart from the fact that trans girls who get cross sex hormones are puberty develop typical female pelvic characteristics, there is also this interesting paper looking at the pelvic structure of trans men:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22810992/

Being trans is a medical condition.

I think you'll find that in almost every quarter, that is considered outrageously transphobic.

And how does it change? And how can it change every few days, a la Pips Bunce. And how come there are now over 1000 of them?

Or are they also a, what was it, loose, shifting constellation of ... something.

Or is it as Shon Faye also says 'impossible to mandate exclusive criteria'. Or is that only when it comes to sex?

Funny isn't it. It's only sex that is loose and shifting, but gender identity is a biological, evidence-based, slap-you-over-the head with how real it is, phenomenon.

Who would have thought? Something that clearly and unambiguously applies to 98.9% of the population is vague, while something that its adherents can't ever define beyond "because I said so" isn't?

They are all thriving.

Really? No bone density, joint issues?

www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

And no vaginal atrophy from CSH? Or have they already had full hysterectomies. Something that most females know are incredibly severe and quite risky as a surgery. No increase in blood pressure? No very large increase in heart disease? Or diabetes?

@Passmeabottlemrjones

Being trans is a medical condition.

Is it? I have been told over and over that it's just like being gay?

It's a medical condition, but there is a lot of overlap with being gay - it's the same people who hate you so your experience of the world can be rather similar. That's why LGBT generally work together to fight bigotry and oppression - we are fighting the same people.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

And how does it change? And how can it change every few days, a la Pips Bunce. And how come there are now over 1000 of them?

Or are they also a, what was it, loose, shifting constellation of ... something.

Or is it as Shon Faye also says 'impossible to mandate exclusive criteria'. Or is that only when it comes to sex?

Funny isn't it. It's only sex that is loose and shifting, but gender identity is a biological, evidence-based, slap-you-over-the head with how real it is, phenomenon.

Who would have thought? Something that clearly and unambiguously applies to 98.9% of the population is vague, while something that its adherents can't ever define beyond "because I said so" isn't?

It's just risible nonsense, isn't it? Although I have to say I have rarely seen anyone quite so eager to inform, as positrans.

Excellent stuff. Very educational.

@InterfectoremVulpes

I'm sure this has already be pointed out in this thread, but if sex is a spectrum why do trans women insist they are female, rather than one of the other supposed sexes along the spectrum?

If sex was a spectrum then that's an argument for 3rd spaces, rather than forcing your way into female spaces.

Yes, this is one of the many things I don't understand. See also, why transition at all if you already are the sex and gender that you are transitioning to? And, if I don't have a gender identity, how do I know I am a woman? And, how is it that 'I wish I were' is now 'I am and always was' when it comes to gender and sex but this doesn't apply to any other human characteristic?

I really hope the lurkers are enjoying this thread as much as I am.....

I think they're probably boggling at it, in all its glory.

There certainly have been cultures in the past and there are other cultures now that recognise more than two, so it is possible. I look forwards to seeing how it's resolved.

So cultural appropriation too. In Most of these cultures those who recognize more than two, did not have an issue of males declaring they are female. They accepted the differences, with different terminology used.

And it would be a very different scenario if transwomen had chosen to do that.

It's just risible nonsense, isn't it? Although I have to say I have rarely seen anyone quite so eager to inform, as positrans.

Excellent stuff. Very educational.

It really is 🤣 my bingo card is full

@Datun

Being trans is a medical condition.

I think you'll find that in almost every quarter, that is considered outrageously transphobic.

Not at all - we wouldn't need medical interventions of it wasn't a medical condition. There are a small number of trans people who see it as a natural variation, and it's an interesting argument, but for most of us it's very medical. That's why for example, something like 87% of trans women have either had, or want to have vaginoplasty:

static1.squarespace.com/static/566c7f0c2399a3bdabb57553/t/566cbf2c57eb8de92a5392e6/1449967404768/ntds_full.pdf

This is where it starts to get interesting. Sex is highly complex and the way we group sex characteristics together into particular groups and name them is cultural. At the moment, we just name two, which of course completely fails to describe the real world. There certainly have been cultures in the past and there are other cultures now that recognise more than two, so it is possible. I look forwards to seeing how it's resolved.

So why not campaign for research into and come up with names for these other sexes rather than claiming to be a sex you aren't?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I really hope the lurkers are enjoying this thread as much as I am.....

I think they're probably boggling at it, in all its glory.

Let's never forget the 12,000,000 to 14,000,000 unique users per month of this site. And that this board is one of the most frequently visited. In fact it was described as an entry point, I believe?

😄

And all these 'oh it's just so hard to define what a woman is - there really is no way of doing it really is there ' crap as well.

People have always known who the women are. They have always known who to murder at birth, to deny the vote to, to deny an education to, to rape as a weapon in war, to deny promotion to, to ' make redundant' during maternity leave, I could go on here. If it was so hard to tell who is a man and who is a woman, how come historically the Houses of Parliament have been overwhelmingly made up of humans with a penis? How come a human with a vagina has never been president of the USA?

Its just all so confusing isn't it?

@guinnessguzzler "why transition at all if you already are the sex and gender that you are transitioning to?"

As I mentioned above, transition isn't what you think it is. When a woman grows a full beard (sometimes because of PCOS but not always) they usually seek to have it removed because most women are uncomfortable with such an overt physical masculinity. Trans women are the same about beards, and various other characteristics.

I do admire women who let their beard grow - I think that's amazing, but I fall into the more common category where excessive facial hair made me feel bad about myself. So I got that fixed, along with a few other details, and now I feel much better :-) That's all physical transition is, but of course there is legal and social transition too.

Whats a transwoman?

In fact it was described as an entry point, I believe?

Munroe Bergdorf even suggested it was a radicalisation portal?

@Passmeabottlemrjones

And all these 'oh it's just so hard to define what a woman is - there really is no way of doing it really is there ' crap as well.

People have always known who the women are. They have always known who to murder at birth, to deny the vote to, to deny an education to, to rape as a weapon in war, to deny promotion to, to ' make redundant' during maternity leave, I could go on here. If it was so hard to tell who is a man and who is a woman, how come historically the Houses of Parliament have been overwhelmingly made up of humans with a penis? How come a human with a vagina has never been president of the USA?

Its just all so confusing isn't it?

Things that trans boys and trans men, and many people with differences of sexual development have also been exposed to.

Things that trans boys and trans men, and many people with differences of sexual development have also been exposed to.

Shock horror they're female too!

Being trans is a medical condition.

Having a medical condition does not give you the privilege to use other’s medical conditions the way you have been on this thread. What you may or may not believe, female’s medical conditions are not there to be politicized or used to justify medical procedures for males wanting to change their bodies for cosmetic purposes.

But please do continue to post. Everytime you do, more information is added to this thread. The readers do get to see alternative viewpoints and ‘educate’ themselves.

@InterfectoremVulpes

Whats a transwoman?

It's a specific way of writing "trans woman" - it's meant to invalidate our identities.

Things that trans boys and trans men, and many people with differences of sexual development have also been exposed to.

Yes.... Why is that I wonder?

Not at all - we wouldn't need medical interventions of it wasn't a medical condition. There are a small number of trans people who see it as a natural variation, and it's an interesting argument, but for most of us it's very medical. That's why for example, something like 87% of trans women have either had, or want to have vaginoplasty:

Are yes, the old 'want to have' vs 'have' conflation.

Even according to trans advocacy groups, genital surgery is rare. It's something like 90% of men who identify as women keep their penis.