Can someone please explain... (trans)

[WednesdayAllTheWay]

So I've been trying to follow this trans situation for a while but now having skin in the game in the form of a child (and also noting through work how more and more people are identifying as the opposite gender) I need to understand it better.
Feel slightly embarrassed asking but:

1. How exactly do the words sex and gender differ in this area?
2. What reasons do trans people give for wanting to change their physical bodies? As in what do people believe they will get from this that they couldn't get in the body they were born with?
3. What are children being taught at school about this?

Thanks!

Me at 23:39 last night They then follow up with accusing anyone who has concerns about communal changing rooms of being a pervert, because only a pervent would go somewhere with communal changing rooms. Even though that means every single man and woman that goes swimming at the local council leisure centre is now a pervert.

Positrans at 11:23am It's already happening - has been for years. It has been interesting to learn that communal changing rooms still exist. I thought they died out in the 70s. I don't know why you would want to get naked with a bunch of strangers, and I don't know why you would look at their genitals, but here's the thing - if you do glimpse a woman's penis, be it on a trans woman, or perhaps on a woman with the highly virilised form of adrenal hyperplasia, you won't actually die.

Next up, I'm going to try for tonight's lottery numbers.

Dido, I'm now getting ads for those shoes is red and black!

@Positrans

"Congratulations for adding such credibility to the tone of this thread."

Do you see how people are attacking Shon, rather than the content of the quote?

Please do continue with this line of posting.

The science doesn't look at the "belief" in gender identity, it looks at the existence and aetiology of gender identity. Science doesn't share your binary view of sex, and gender identity is a biological sex characteristic so is a factor in defining sex. Gender fluid people are well worthy of inclusion in the research and may offer further insight into what parts of the brain are at play and how it develops

So, if gender identity can be proven to exist, how is it defined? What is it that makes some people certain that they have one?

@PotholeParadies

Me at 23:39 last night They then follow up with accusing anyone who has concerns about communal changing rooms of being a pervert, because only a pervent would go somewhere with communal changing rooms. Even though that means every single man and woman that goes swimming at the local council leisure centre is now a pervert.

Positrans at 11:23am It's already happening - has been for years. It has been interesting to learn that communal changing rooms still exist. I thought they died out in the 70s. I don't know why you would want to get naked with a bunch of strangers, and I don't know why you would look at their genitals, but here's the thing - if you do glimpse a woman's penis, be it on a trans woman, or perhaps on a woman with the highly virilised form of adrenal hyperplasia, you won't actually die.

Next up, I'm going to try for tonight's lottery numbers.

Dido, I'm now getting ads for those shoes is red and black!

Do it, potholes. You're on fire !

1. Shon Faye had the best definition of "woman" that I have seen:

"'Woman' is a loose, shifting constellation of biological, political and cultural phenomena which varies according to context, place and time. While it's possible to notice strong correlations among these; it's impossible to mandate exclusive criteria."

That's nice dear.

Doesn't the sheer volume of science that you have to dismiss start to make you uncomfortable though?

I'm wondering how much science you would have to dismiss in your quest to prove your assertion that "Science doesn't share your binary view of sex".

Do you know where babies come from Positrans?

Yeah, if I was Faye, I wouldn't be impressed with TRAs keep invoking me.

Because everytime they do, people pull together everything they say and bring it to light.

I'm sure this has already be pointed out in this thread, but if sex is a spectrum why do trans women insist they are female, rather than one of the other supposed sexes along the spectrum?

If sex was a spectrum then that's an argument for 3rd spaces, rather than forcing your way into female spaces.

@Winesalot

They are the same demographic. I was a trans child, I recognise everything they describe from my own bitter experience, and I know what they are going to go through if they don't get blockers.

No. And this is where you interpretation of reality is very dangerous and harmful to others. That you cannot acknowledge the degree of negative impact of puberty blockers on the female body has little to do with your being male or female. Except, of course, that you minimize these effects because, perhaps, of your belief that you are ‘female’ and you cannot conceive what those young females will experience.

It is something we see in our regular male posters. They too downplay these negative effects. Because they are only focused on their male perspective. As with everything they post, they cannot hide their male perspective.

I have many trans friends - I am pretty active in the community globally. I can think of 7 off the top of my head who transitioned with puberty blockers and another 4 who are currently on them. They are all thriving. So these are people I actually know - that I have had long discussions with at official events, and some of whom are personal friends.

I also know an even larger number of trans adults who transitioned without puberty blockers, almost all of whom regret that fact.

The only minimising going on here is the minimising of the devastating effects on a trans girl, for example, of experiencing the effects of testosterone. When it happens to a non-trans girl like Keira Bell, you all throw your arms in the air, but when it's a trans girl, you think she should just suck it up.

People like Keira need everyone's support - both trans and non-trans, but her experience is not justification for forcing the same suffering on trans kids.

And how many women do you know who were clearly trans as teenagers and now are not ? Do you perhaps have a very narrow view of the world ?

@InterfectoremVulpes

I'm sure this has already be pointed out in this thread, but if sex is a spectrum why do trans women insist they are female, rather than one of the other supposed sexes along the spectrum?

If sex was a spectrum then that's an argument for 3rd spaces, rather than forcing your way into female spaces.

This is where it starts to get interesting. Sex is highly complex and the way we group sex characteristics together into particular groups and name them is cultural. At the moment, we just name two, which of course completely fails to describe the real world. There certainly have been cultures in the past and there are other cultures now that recognise more than two, so it is possible. I look forwards to seeing how it's resolved.

@NancyDrawed

The science doesn't look at the "belief" in gender identity, it looks at the existence and aetiology of gender identity. Science doesn't share your binary view of sex, and gender identity is a biological sex characteristic so is a factor in defining sex. Gender fluid people are well worthy of inclusion in the research and may offer further insight into what parts of the brain are at play and how it develops

So, if gender identity can be proven to exist, how is it defined? What is it that makes some people certain that they have one?

And how does it change? And how can it change every few days, a la Pips Bunce. And how come there are now over 1000 of them?

Or are they also a, what was it, loose, shifting constellation of ... something.

Or is it as Shon Faye also says 'impossible to mandate exclusive criteria'. Or is that only when it comes to sex?

Funny isn't it. It's only sex that is loose and shifting, but gender identity is a biological, evidence-based, slap-you-over-the head with how real it is, phenomenon.

The science doesn't look at the "belief" in gender identity, it looks at the existence and aetiology of gender identity.

But there is no definition of gender identity. To study its 'existence and aetiology' we must first have a definition of what it is. And by using the word 'aetiology' are you not defining it as a disorder? This word is normally used in medicine to refer to the causes of disease and other medical conditions. So is everyone who has a 'gender identity' actually suffering from a medical condition?

I refer to it as a belief, because it's always defined as just a 'feeling'. This is why it can't be pinned down and there is no objective way to discover another person's gender identity.

Do you see how people are attacking Shon, rather than the content of the quote?

OK let me explain.

It's really fucking offensive for a male to describe womanhood as a 'loose, shifting constellation of... phenomena'. How dare you. Its so offensive to all the women throughout history who have never been able to 'identify' out of their oppression, out of their biological experiences, out of their female bodies.

Since the dawn of time, men have tried to define women, to tell them what they are and aren't allowed to be, what they are and what they are not. In this quote, Shon Faye has just done what millions of males did before Shon. Its the same old misogynistic shite as ever.

@midgebabe

And how many women do you know who were clearly trans as teenagers and now are not ? Do you perhaps have a very narrow view of the world ?

Well teenagers have usually started puberty, and as we know, if a child is trans at the onset of puberty, that's pretty much it - it doesn't change. That's why de-transition after staring blockers is so rare.

blogs.rch.org.au/news/2017/11/30/kelvin-family-court-announcement/

Funny isn't it. It's only sex that is loose and shifting, but gender identity is a biological, evidence-based, slap-you-over-the head with how real it is, phenomenon.

It's gaslighting pure and simple. That we are expected believe that biological sex is a 'grey area' but that gender identity is so objective that that is what we must base law and policy upon?

What a load of absolute horseshit.

@Passmeabottlemrjones

Do you see how people are attacking Shon, rather than the content of the quote?

OK let me explain.

It's really fucking offensive for a male to describe womanhood as a 'loose, shifting constellation of... phenomena'. How dare you. Its so offensive to all the women throughout history who have never been able to 'identify' out of their oppression, out of their biological experiences, out of their female bodies.

Since the dawn of time, men have tried to define women, to tell them what they are and aren't allowed to be, what they are and what they are not. In this quote, Shon Faye has just done what millions of males did before Shon. Its the same old misogynistic shite as ever.

It's also a description of "male". It works both ways.

@Winesalot

Yeah, if I was Faye, I wouldn't be impressed with TRAs keep invoking me.

Because everytime they do, people pull together everything they say and bring it to light.

Yes. Although strictly, it is the only definition of a woman I've ever seen by a transactivist.

Unless of course, positrans knows differently? I'm sure they have other, more credible definitions? Since they claim to be one.

@Winesalot

So transition isn't what you think it is - it isn't a change of sex, except in a legal and social sense - physically, it's just a matter of changing physical characteristics that cause you distress. As I said before, it's the same as a non-trans woman having excessive facial hair removed or a non-trans man having breasts removed.

As I said before, it's the same as a non-trans woman having excessive facial hair removed or a non-trans man having breasts removed.

Just breaking this sentence out. Did you realise you have again appropriated a female medical condition to explain yourself. Females with ‘excessive facial hair’ is often associated with PCOS.

And ‘non-trans men’ have their breasts removed? You mean men? Having their breast tissue removed? Why???

Or do you mean females having their breasts removed. Again, females do this for medical purposes. Some females may have breast reductions but that is usually for health purposes only due to pain and other impacts. I know of not one female who has had their breasts removed simply because they didn’t like breasts and it distressed them.

Do you realise that you make light of other’s medical conditions to justify your position? You use others conditions as ‘gotchas’.

If you were really interested in making strong points for your discussion, you might want to consider whether you can make a strong point without abusing others.

Being trans is a medical condition.

I really hope the lurkers are enjoying this thread as much as I am.....

No one ever changes sex, they merely change their outward appearance. You can’t alter your skeleton & sex is not a spectrum

There certainly have been cultures in the past and there are other cultures now that recognise more than two, so it is possible. I look forwards to seeing how it's resolved.

Maybe the trans community could lead the way with this. Why don't you suggest that rather than identifying as the binary 'woman' (and thereby perpetuating the binary narrative you so obviously deplore) you define some other identities to identify as? And maybe until you reach a consensus as a community to you campaign for a third space. We'd all be happy with that.

@OldCrone

The science doesn't look at the "belief" in gender identity, it looks at the existence and aetiology of gender identity.

But there is no definition of gender identity. To study its 'existence and aetiology' we must first have a definition of what it is. And by using the word 'aetiology' are you not defining it as a disorder? This word is normally used in medicine to refer to the causes of disease and other medical conditions. So is everyone who has a 'gender identity' actually suffering from a medical condition?

I refer to it as a belief, because it's always defined as just a 'feeling'. This is why it can't be pinned down and there is no objective way to discover another person's gender identity.

The definition is well know and very simple - gender identity is a person's innate sense of what sex they are.

Well teenagers have usually started puberty, and as we know, if a child is trans at the onset of puberty, that's pretty much it - it doesn't change. That's why de-transition after staring blockers is so rare.

Which is why the High Court thought it was a shocking state of affairs that young children were thought competent to consent to becoming a lifelong medical patient, be permanently infertile, have a reduced to non-existent sex life, and make irreversible and negative changes to their body.

Thank goodness the law disagrees with it so vehemently.

It's also a description of "male". It works both ways.

No it doesn't 'work both ways'. No one has ever described 'man' as a 'loose, shifting constellation'. Shon was describing 'woman' in that tweet. Men are not described as 'ejaculators'. Men's cancer charities arent falling over themselves to ensure that they never utter the word 'man' or 'men' lest they offend someone.

Works both ways my arse.

@Passmeabottlemrjones

Funny isn't it. It's only sex that is loose and shifting, but gender identity is a biological, evidence-based, slap-you-over-the head with how real it is, phenomenon.

It's gaslighting pure and simple. That we are expected believe that biological sex is a 'grey area' but that gender identity is so objective that that is what we must base law and policy upon?

What a load of absolute horseshit.

Course it is. No one takes it seriously.