Can someone please explain... (trans)

[WednesdayAllTheWay]

So I've been trying to follow this trans situation for a while but now having skin in the game in the form of a child (and also noting through work how more and more people are identifying as the opposite gender) I need to understand it better.
Feel slightly embarrassed asking but:

1. How exactly do the words sex and gender differ in this area?
2. What reasons do trans people give for wanting to change their physical bodies? As in what do people believe they will get from this that they couldn't get in the body they were born with?
3. What are children being taught at school about this?

Thanks!

I agree with all of that, but it is still strong enough for the scientists to say "Considerable scientific evidence has emerged demonstrating a durable biological element underlying gender identity.1, 2 Individuals may make choices due to other factors in their lives, but there do not seem to be external forces that genuinely cause individuals to change gender identity." And note the the actual existence of gender identity isn't even a question - it's a given.

What 'the scientists say' is an opinion, in an opinion piece (that's what the position statement is, it's not a peer reviewed scientific paper). My interpretation of the results which are discussed in the literature review (Saraswat A, Weinand JD, Safer JD. Evidence supporting the biologic nature of gender identity. Endocr Pract. Feb 2015;21(2):199-204) which seems to be the basis for this assertion by the endocrine society are more in keeping with that of the paper's authors: 'Because the sample sizes of most studies on this subject were small, the conclusions must be interpreted with caution. Further research is required to assign specific biologic mechanisms for gender identity.'

And the fact that all these people believe in 'gender identity' means what, exactly? Lots of people believe in God. Does that mean I have to share that belief, just because lots of other people do?

@midgebabe

On what basis do you think children need puberty blockers? Where is the evidence that people in past generations have been harmed due to lack of such technology?

My own life is evidence, and the lives of most trans adults around today - those that were tough enough to survive the mental anguish they went through.

the actual existence of gender identity isn't even a question - it's a given.

I’d like to know more about this, given I had no idea I was supposed to have had a gender identity until I was about 30 and first started reading about this stuff online.

How can something be so obvious “it’s a given” if most people don’t know they have one until they are so informed?

It seems to me that most trans people and a minority of “educated” (eg been through and swallowed trainings on the matter) people who are not trans have a gender identity.

Everyone else (most people) has a sexed body and gets on with living in it, with varying degrees of success

@OldCrone

I agree with all of that, but it is still strong enough for the scientists to say "Considerable scientific evidence has emerged demonstrating a durable biological element underlying gender identity.1, 2 Individuals may make choices due to other factors in their lives, but there do not seem to be external forces that genuinely cause individuals to change gender identity." And note the the actual existence of gender identity isn't even a question - it's a given.

What 'the scientists say' is an opinion, in an opinion piece (that's what the position statement is, it's not a peer reviewed scientific paper). My interpretation of the results which are discussed in the literature review (Saraswat A, Weinand JD, Safer JD. Evidence supporting the biologic nature of gender identity. Endocr Pract. Feb 2015;21(2):199-204) which seems to be the basis for this assertion by the endocrine society are more in keeping with that of the paper's authors: 'Because the sample sizes of most studies on this subject were small, the conclusions must be interpreted with caution. Further research is required to assign specific biologic mechanisms for gender identity.'

And the fact that all these people believe in 'gender identity' means what, exactly? Lots of people believe in God. Does that mean I have to share that belief, just because lots of other people do?

@OldCrone " 'Because the sample sizes of most studies on this subject were small, the conclusions must be interpreted with caution. Further research is required to assign specific biologic mechanisms for gender identity.'"

I completely agree with that sensible statment. Never-the-less, the weight of evidence as it stands is heavy enough for scientists to already have concluded that there is something biological going on.

"And the fact that all these people believe in 'gender identity' means what, exactly? Lots of people believe in God. Does that mean I have to share that belief, just because lots of other people do?"

Well, there's a difference here isn't there, in that the scientists have reached a logical conclusion by observing the evidence and applying scientific method. A belief in a god is something rather different. But of course, you don't have to share the "belief" - you are free to believe anything you like.

If trans people get blockers at puberty, they generally need a lot less surgery.

Do they? Can you outline what the differences are?

My understanding is that genital surgery is more complicated in males who have not gone through puberty, due to the lack of 'material' to work with. This is well known following a couple of particularly well publicised cases (JG and JJ - I'm sure you know who I mean).

A girl who has started puberty (which is a requirement for starting on puberty blockers) will have some breast development, so if she wants a 'male-looking' chest will still need a double mastectomy.

The main argument for puberty blockers in adolescence seems to be around preventing, in males, the growth of facial hair and the deepening of the voice. There seems to be no obvious similar 'benefit' for giving these drugs to adolescent girls.

[quote DidoLamenting]Off topic but the internet algorithm has got it spectacularly wrong for the adverts it's showing me on this thread. It's clearly thought "she's usually Googling expensive dresses but she's now wittering on about communal changing rooms- she'll love this ! . A snip at £989.

www.vitkac.com/gb/p/sock-sneakers-balenciaga-shoes-1109511[/quote]
Classy

😀

1. Shon Faye had the best definition of "woman" that I have seen:

😁

Shon Faye whose advice to teens was 'be sluttier than you are, while you can'. And whose 'inspiring' talks to school children was 'suck dick, get tits early'.

And then recommended that women 'enjoy their erasure'.

Still, it's always good to show your workings out, isn't it!

@FWRLurker

the actual existence of gender identity isn't even a question - it's a given.

I’d like to know more about this, given I had no idea I was supposed to have had a gender identity until I was about 30 and first started reading about this stuff online.

How can something be so obvious “it’s a given” if most people don’t know they have one until they are so informed?

It seems to me that most trans people and a minority of “educated” (eg been through and swallowed trainings on the matter) people who are not trans have a gender identity.

Everyone else (most people) has a sexed body and gets on with living in it, with varying degrees of success

You are mistaken in thinking only trans people have a gender identity. Something like two thirds of people are pretty clear about having one (that would be about 5 billion people)

www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19419899.2013.830640#.Vu7-AXpxqCg

Exactly why the other third are a bit more vague about it, I can't tell you. Hopefully the science will be forthcoming.

My own life is evidence, and the lives of most trans adults around today - those that were tough enough to survive the mental anguish they went through.

I'm afraid the courts disagree. The anecdotes of late transitioning male born individuals, was not considered compelling.

My own life is evidence, and the lives of most trans adults around today - those that were tough enough to survive the mental anguish they went through.

And you must also realize that the current cohort of transitioning children and teens are in fact a very different demographic to you. And that the effects of these puberty blockers differ between sexes. (Ie. The sex that relates to the body which produce one type of gamete vs the other). So, in effect what you advocate for, to help the ‘passing potential’ for trans people, has significant negative ramifications on the female body.

It seems though that you don’t have any care for those transitioners from what and how you write.

@Datun

1. Shon Faye had the best definition of "woman" that I have seen:

😁

Shon Faye whose advice to teens was 'be sluttier than you are, while you can'. And whose 'inspiring' talks to school children was 'suck dick, get tits early'.

And then recommended that women 'enjoy their erasure'.

Still, it's always good to show your workings out, isn't it!

So you would dismiss people whose other views you find abhorrent - people like Rod Liddle, or Caroline Farrow or that right-wing fundamentalist man who who took the Keira Bell case? Or can you agree with the Taliban that the sky is blue?

@Datun

1. Shon Faye had the best definition of "woman" that I have seen:

😁

Shon Faye whose advice to teens was 'be sluttier than you are, while you can'. And whose 'inspiring' talks to school children was 'suck dick, get tits early'.

And then recommended that women 'enjoy their erasure'.

Still, it's always good to show your workings out, isn't it!

This is exactly what went through my mind when I read Positrans thought Faye was the best describer of women!!

Oh dear. They have such in-depth insight into being a woman. And being female.

Congratulations for adding such credibility to the tone of this thread.

Gender identity cannot be described. Everyone has a different one, some people don't have one, some people have one but it changes, some people decided that they used to have one, but they don't now, some never had one and now they do. Some people have several, and some people have different ones at different times. And some people's gender identity is the fact that they don't have one. 🙄

Whatever a gender identity is, or isn't, it's not a sex. And therefore rights based on sex should not be ceded on it's basis.

It's not complicated, despite people wishing it were.

@Winesalot

My own life is evidence, and the lives of most trans adults around today - those that were tough enough to survive the mental anguish they went through.

And you must also realize that the current cohort of transitioning children and teens are in fact a very different demographic to you. And that the effects of these puberty blockers differ between sexes. (Ie. The sex that relates to the body which produce one type of gamete vs the other). So, in effect what you advocate for, to help the ‘passing potential’ for trans people, has significant negative ramifications on the female body.

It seems though that you don’t have any care for those transitioners from what and how you write.

They are the same demographic. I was a trans child, I recognise everything they describe from my own bitter experience, and I know what they are going to go through if they don't get blockers.

@Datun

Gender identity cannot be described. Everyone has a different one, some people don't have one, some people have one but it changes, some people decided that they used to have one, but they don't now, some never had one and now they do. Some people have several, and some people have different ones at different times. And some people's gender identity is the fact that they don't have one. 🙄

Whatever a gender identity is, or isn't, it's not a sex. And therefore rights based on sex should not be ceded on it's basis.

It's not complicated, despite people wishing it were.

Complex isn't it - rather like all the other things that make up a person's sex.

"Congratulations for adding such credibility to the tone of this thread."

Do you see how people are attacking Shon, rather than the content of the quote?

So you would dismiss people whose other views you find abhorrent - people like Rod Liddle, or Caroline Farrow or that right-wing fundamentalist man who who took the Keira Bell case? Or can you agree with the Taliban that the sky is blue?

🤣🤣🤣

As ever, I don't actually need to say anything at all. You've got the mic.

Surely 'gender identity' is just a sense of oneself as an individual and how one fits in the wider world?

I have no idea what it is to feel like a transwoman, as I am a woman. I feel like myself. Similarly no transwoman can have an idea what it is to feel like a woman. Any individual can only feel like themselves.

You are mistaken in thinking only trans people have a gender identity. Something like two thirds of people are pretty clear about having one (that would be about 5 billion people)

The paper you cite used a sample of about 2000 self-selected people, most of whom were connected with universities in Israel where the authors are based. I'm not sure you can draw any conclusions about the rest of the world from the results of their survey.

@NancyDrawed

Positrans

The article is all about how there is now enough evidence for science to proceed an the basis that gender identity is biological

Even if it it could be properly evidenced that a belief in gender identity was biological, male people are still male, female people are still female. And where would it leave gender fluid people?

The science doesn't look at the "belief" in gender identity, it looks at the existence and aetiology of gender identity. Science doesn't share your binary view of sex, and gender identity is a biological sex characteristic so is a factor in defining sex. Gender fluid people are well worthy of inclusion in the research and may offer further insight into what parts of the brain are at play and how it develops.

@Positrans

"Congratulations for adding such credibility to the tone of this thread."

Do you see how people are attacking Shon, rather than the content of the quote?

Yeah, if I was Faye, I wouldn't be impressed with TRAs keep invoking me.

@OldCrone

You are mistaken in thinking only trans people have a gender identity. Something like two thirds of people are pretty clear about having one (that would be about 5 billion people)

The paper you cite used a sample of about 2000 self-selected people, most of whom were connected with universities in Israel where the authors are based. I'm not sure you can draw any conclusions about the rest of the world from the results of their survey.

Well of course - it's doesn't really matter what science I post - peer-reviewed or otherwise. It will all be dismissed here. Doesn't the sheer volume of science that you have to dismiss start to make you uncomfortable though?

They are the same demographic. I was a trans child, I recognise everything they describe from my own bitter experience, and I know what they are going to go through if they don't get blockers.

No. And this is where you interpretation of reality is very dangerous and harmful to others. That you cannot acknowledge the degree of negative impact of puberty blockers on the female body has little to do with your being male or female. Except, of course, that you minimize these effects because, perhaps, of your belief that you are ‘female’ and you cannot conceive what those young females will experience.

It is something we see in our regular male posters. They too downplay these negative effects. Because they are only focused on their male perspective. As with everything they post, they cannot hide their male perspective.

Well of course - it's doesn't really matter what science I post - peer-reviewed or otherwise. It will all be dismissed here. Doesn't the sheer volume of science that you have to dismiss start to make you uncomfortable though?

🤣🤣🤣